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Member Posts: 3945 From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior) Joined: Member Rating: 10.0 |
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Author | Topic: Continuation of Flood Discussion | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Ah, okay. Not into my first cup of coffee yet... I'm about to start on my second large mug.
Anyway, there is a little bit of a caveat here. To cover very steep topography, such as shown in the picture, it would either have to be the filling of a lake or very rapid sea level rise. Right, you aren't going to get an angular unconformity here noway nohow.
If the former, you would have spatially restricted deposits, such as the Green River Formation. If the latter, you would usually have erosion of the entire region closer to sea level, such as in places like coastal plains, so that total relief would be less and the area would be inundated more quickly. It is hard for me to imagine this topography being overrun by the sea without a whole lot of erosion first. Even the valleys here are quite high in elevation. Yup. No angular unconformity noway nohow.
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edge Member (Idle past 1735 days) Posts: 4696 From: Colorado, USA Joined: |
Oddly enough, I suppose, I don't start with any such premise, I am truly starting from observation of all those diagrams and pictures I've seen and they fit that scenario.
So, you don't start with a biblical perspective? I'm sorry but that stretches my credulity.
Eroding the lumpy surface flat enough for deposition to lay down neat horizontal layers that don't have to fill in the valleys is already beyond the possible (and if you can't see valleys in that diagram there's something wrong with your eyes), ...
Then you need to explain what Percy just pointed out. The island of Shinumo Quartzite which penetrates upward, through the Tapeats.
... and such deposition could only happen by water anyway and where is that going to come from?
As I said the quartzite formed a resistant ridge around which the Tapeats was deposited. In fact, that means that it was already very resistant (lithified) at the time attesting to its relatively older age.
Oh I know: in millions of years we can count on ANYTHING we need to satisfy the theory.
And this is a problem?
Meanwhile we've got, in four diagrams so far (GC-GS, Great Britain cross section, Percy's of the Gulf of Mexico, and this one of Utah) what I've been calling the Geologic Column, all those layers that would have originally been stacked neatly and horizontally, obviously to a great depth in all those examples, probably in all cases even up to the Holocene level though that isn't apparent on this latest one or the one of Great Britain (just because they aren't labeled), still probably very close because that's a LOT of layers represented there. Anyway, four places where there was this original stack of horizontal layers that do customarily get labeled with time periods in the hundreds of millions, and after they are all laid down then and only then are they distorted: eroded, folded, sagging into a salt layer and so on.
And the problem is? I have asked you repeatedly for some kind of principle that requires deformation to occur in every location on earth. You have failed to do so.
There must be more out there. And you all just blithely imagine more layers getting laid down on top of this formation. I find that eyepoppingly ludicrous and don't see why you don't.
And yet we see it all the time...
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Yes, any deposition SHOULD fill in the gaps but as a matter of fact angular unconformities do not fill in the gaps and dips and valleys. They are shown and interpreted to be deposited on surfaces that have eroded down almost completely flat -- with the exception of a bump or two perhaps such as the Shinumo quartzite. That's true of the Great Unconformity and it's true of Siccar Point and I can't think of an exception. You show the Utah diagram completely flattened for the completely flat horizontal layers you imagine being deposited there in some millions of years. I'm told over and over again that erosion can flatten a surface like that, even with upended strata of various hardnesses, and over and over again I am boggled at such an idea.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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edge Member (Idle past 1735 days) Posts: 4696 From: Colorado, USA Joined: |
Right, you aren't going to get an angular unconformity here noway nohow.
Except that lakes have shorelines and streams entering them from surrounding land masses.
Yup. No angular unconformity noway nohow.
Heh, heh... That was predictable. The problem is that in some cases that eroded region was previously deformed. In fact, the boundary of the Colorado Plateau shows this quite plainly. And, for the untrained, angular unconformities are not the only kind of unconformity. But I really enjoy the depth of your argument and how you support your 'noway, nohow' statements.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I have asked you repeatedly for some kind of principle that requires deformation to occur in every location on earth. You have failed to do so. The principle would of course be that the layers were laid down in the Flood, after which tectonic, volcanic and other disturbances eroded and distorted the strata. What else? There should be differences in how different regions were affected but there should be some evidence to show this pattern everywhere. However, I'm focusing on finding EXAMPLES of where this has in fact occurred. Four so far. So far you've disputed it but haven't shown anything that contradicts it in reality. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
But I really enjoy the depth of your argument and how you support your 'noway, nohow' statements. No need in this case, you did it for me.
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edge Member (Idle past 1735 days) Posts: 4696 From: Colorado, USA Joined: |
Yes, any deposition SHOULD fill in the gaps but as a matter of fact angular unconformities do not fill in the gaps and dips and valleys. They are shown and interpreted to be deposited on surfaces that have eroded down almost completely flat -- with the exception of a bump or two perhaps such as the Shinumo quartzite.
Yes, that nasty data keeps getting in the way of preconceived notions. Just 'little bumps'. I'm sure you can safely ignore them. Here is a little more detail from Siccar Point.
As it shows the more resistant layers form ridges in the unconformity surface just as we would expect from erosion. Here is a detailed schematic of the Siccar Point occurrence:
Note the infilling where the recessive layers are more deeply weathered. Edited by edge, : No reason given. Edited by edge, : No reason given.
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edge Member (Idle past 1735 days) Posts: 4696 From: Colorado, USA Joined: |
No need in this case, you did it for me.
If you cant' explain why, I'll understand.
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edge Member (Idle past 1735 days) Posts: 4696 From: Colorado, USA Joined: |
The principle would of course be that the layers were laid down in the Flood, after which tectonic, volcanic and other disturbances eroded and distorted the strata. What else?
That's not a priciple, it's a story line.
There should be differences in how different regions were affected but there should be some evidence to show this pattern everywhere.
Except when there aren't. I have already shown you evidence of erosion occurring during your flood period.
However, I'm focusing on finding EXAMPLES of where this has in fact occurred. Four so far. So far you've disputed it but haven't shown anything that contradicts it in reality.
It's very hard to contradict dogma to the dogmatic.
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
Why on earth does the stack have to be "intact"? I can take Legos off, put Legos on, take Legos off... I can rebuild the entire stack from bottom to top and I can still add another Lego to the top. Y'kow why? But there is no intact stack any more, it's eroded, tilted, folded, there is no place to put your Lego that would build on the original stack that once was horizontal and climbed through all the time periods up to the one where you could put your Lego. Because there's always a top. All you need to add something to the top is a top. It doesn't matter one bit what's under the top. The top is always on top.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined:
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Once horizontal though, then distorted.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
The diagram doesn't represent anything I see in the photograph.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Oh well, if you don't see why the ORIGINAL top is where the column has to continue building I guess all I can do is laugh.
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edge Member (Idle past 1735 days) Posts: 4696 From: Colorado, USA Joined: |
The diagram doesn't represent anything I see in the photograph.
It is of the unconformity. From what I can see, it was drawn in 1920.
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
What on earth does the original top have to do with anything? Why can't I stick another Lego on the current top?
Oh well, if you don't see why the ORIGINAL top is where the column has to continue building I guess all I can do is laugh.
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