Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9164 total)
1 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,913 Year: 4,170/9,624 Month: 1,041/974 Week: 0/368 Day: 0/11 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Continuation of Flood Discussion
edge
Member (Idle past 1736 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 1105 of 1304 (733021)
07-13-2014 2:19 PM
Reply to: Message 1098 by Faith
07-13-2014 1:37 PM


Re: The Holocene is a time period!!!
But we aren't in the Pleistocene and there won't be anything after the Holocene.
Well, this is 2014 and there won't be anything after that.
Your posts become more and more bizarre as the thread wears on, Faith.
I think this is apparent in the fact that the time periods are constructed on the upward climb of the strata and there aren't going to be any more strata.
Why not?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1098 by Faith, posted 07-13-2014 1:37 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1116 by Minnemooseus, posted 07-13-2014 3:35 PM edge has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1736 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 1106 of 1304 (733022)
07-13-2014 2:22 PM
Reply to: Message 1099 by Faith
07-13-2014 1:41 PM


Re: The Holocene is a time period!!!
If sedimentation is continuing on the bottom of the ocean it is NOT "continuing upward."
Okay, then, in what direction is it continuing?
Time can't stop continuing upward and onward of course but sedimentation obviously can and does.
Time continues upwards?
But if erosion continues, then sedimentatin must continue.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1099 by Faith, posted 07-13-2014 1:41 PM Faith has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1736 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(1)
Message 1107 of 1304 (733024)
07-13-2014 2:27 PM
Reply to: Message 1100 by Faith
07-13-2014 1:49 PM


Erosion doesn't do that.
If you say so, Faith.
Besides, it's all a lot of guessing you're doing. You've never seen it happen.
Let's see, when I create hypotheses based on experience and evidence, its guess work and that's bad. But when you make evidence-free assertions that reject all mainsream science, that's good.
I think I see where you are coming from.
Edited by edge, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1100 by Faith, posted 07-13-2014 1:49 PM Faith has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1736 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 1108 of 1304 (733025)
07-13-2014 2:32 PM
Reply to: Message 1104 by PaulK
07-13-2014 2:13 PM


I'm pretty sure that you're badly misunderstanding everything. Especially as the last sentence would be better written as "...sedimentation is still continuing in basins, river deltas and the sea, just as it did in the distant past"
It appears that Faith has a lot invested in the geological death of the planet. I'm not sure why.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1104 by PaulK, posted 07-13-2014 2:13 PM PaulK has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1111 by Faith, posted 07-13-2014 3:04 PM edge has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1736 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 1109 of 1304 (733026)
07-13-2014 2:51 PM
Reply to: Message 1103 by ringo
07-13-2014 2:10 PM


Re: Geological Time Scale REQUIRES ascent to make sense
There are a lot more New Yorkers in New York than in Dallas. Does that mean you can ignore the New Yorkers that are in Dallas?
The fact is that there are burrows and trackways buried in the column. If the whole column was created by the Flood, how did those burrows and trackways get down there?
Ths is one of the better evidences against the biblical flood and Faith, true to form, is simply evading the question.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1103 by ringo, posted 07-13-2014 2:10 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1112 by Faith, posted 07-13-2014 3:06 PM edge has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1736 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 1142 of 1304 (733078)
07-13-2014 7:30 PM
Reply to: Message 1111 by Faith
07-13-2014 3:04 PM


But there is no way that sedimentation in deltas and basins could possibly account for the huge strata in the Geo Column.
That was not the intent. It was to give examples of non-tabular, non-continuous deposits. But they are still part of the geologic record.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1111 by Faith, posted 07-13-2014 3:04 PM Faith has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1736 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 1143 of 1304 (733079)
07-13-2014 7:41 PM
Reply to: Message 1131 by Faith
07-13-2014 4:52 PM


Re: Evidence ???
If you want to prove me wrong you are going to have to show me a place where the strata are that complete WITHOUT erosion and distortion after they were all in place but continue to build by placid deposition. I'm betting there is no such place on Planet Earth.
Actually, I would say practically all of the passive continental margins such as the east coast of North America, or the abyssal plain of any ocean. Otherwise, how could we drill deep-sea sediment cores?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1131 by Faith, posted 07-13-2014 4:52 PM Faith has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1736 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 1144 of 1304 (733080)
07-13-2014 7:50 PM
Reply to: Message 1139 by Faith
07-13-2014 6:44 PM


Re: Geo Column / Geo Time Scale
The Time Scale may not have been invented to correspond to the Column but there can't be any doubt that it is associated with it, often illustrated in conjunction with it (certainly in the Grand Canyon area for dramatic instance), and unarguably based on its fossil contents.
What about other areas that were being eroded at the time the GC strata were being deposited?
For instance, during the Pennsylvanian period, erosion was occurring, but it was followed by deposition of the Mesozoic rocks. According to you, those younger rocks should not be part of the geological column because they did not climb upward from Permian rocks. Was geologic time temporarily suspended?
Please explain.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1139 by Faith, posted 07-13-2014 6:44 PM Faith has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1736 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 1159 of 1304 (733119)
07-14-2014 10:30 AM
Reply to: Message 1158 by Faith
07-14-2014 10:15 AM


Re: Legoland
That's very clever and probably the only answer that at least superficially challenges what I'm saying. The thing is if a deposition did occur over that formation it would fill in the valleys ...
What valleys? I see no valleys in the picture.
... and I haven't ever seen an angular unconformity in which the upper layers were anything but straight and flat both top and bottom, have you?
Actually, yes, I have. It's called buried topography and an example would be the buried stream system that someone posted earlier based on seismic data.
Also the upper layers occur over tightly folded lower layers, I've never seen one form over the kind of base in that diagram, have you?
Yes. Siccar Point is an example. I have seen very deformed bedding planed off by by wave action and by stream channel development.
In theory that could happen but in reality there's no evidence that it ever does that I know of. Perhaps you can find some but I doubt it.
If you think that way, considering all of your training and experience, then I'm sure you are correct.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1158 by Faith, posted 07-14-2014 10:15 AM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1166 by Percy, posted 07-14-2014 11:07 AM edge has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1736 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 1160 of 1304 (733120)
07-14-2014 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 1153 by Jaderis
07-14-2014 5:54 AM


Re: Geological Time Scale REQUIRES ascent to make sense
How could a layer of exposed, lithified sediment exist without layers that used to exist on top of it (since it is lithified and all)? If the flood can arrange fossils and sediments, why do some strata columns represent more "complete" timelines, while others seem to skip time creating those "gaps?"
I think that Faith's premise is that there has been only one period of deposition (the flood), one period of erosion/unconformity (the present), one period of magmatism (sometime after the flood), and only one period of deformation (also after the flood). Everything must fit into this paradigm.
It's quite a straight-jacket, but with an overactive imagination, anything becomes possible. It's kind of like Harry Potter geology.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1153 by Jaderis, posted 07-14-2014 5:54 AM Jaderis has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1167 by Faith, posted 07-14-2014 11:16 AM edge has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1736 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 1162 of 1304 (733122)
07-14-2014 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 1156 by JonF
07-14-2014 9:23 AM


Re: Legoland
Note the large dip to the right.
Of course all unconformities are examples (I think) in spite of your fantasy of layers rolling around underground and being transported whole and unmarked by a magical water-like-but-doesn't-act-like-water fludde.
Just by way of discolsure here. This picture, I'm pretty sure is from a limestone quarry somewhere in the eastern US. However, that does not detract from the point. I have seen identical structure in wave-cut terraces in Alaska, and if we cut a cross-section at the classic Siccar Point location, I'm sure it would look similar, though with different rock types.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1156 by JonF, posted 07-14-2014 9:23 AM JonF has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1736 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 1163 of 1304 (733123)
07-14-2014 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 1161 by Coyote
07-14-2014 10:43 AM


Re: Massive errosion and massive delta formation
So it is not surprising to us that you can't think of a mechanism here.
You mean like normal depositional rates over long periods of time? You are correct, Faith cannot imagine such a thing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1161 by Coyote, posted 07-14-2014 10:43 AM Coyote has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1736 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 1168 of 1304 (733131)
07-14-2014 11:21 AM
Reply to: Message 1165 by Percy
07-14-2014 11:05 AM


Re: Legoland
Look at the top surface of the rightmost of the two angular uncomformities with the Grand Canyon supergroup. The Tapeats and the Bright Angel Shale have both been deposited around the bulge of the Shinumo layer of the supergroup. The layers did not deposit up the sides of the Shinumo because as a prominence on the landscape it would have been an object of net erosion.
A good point. In fact, it was an island in the Cambrian Sea.
And the fact that it is a quartzite makes sense. It was more resistant to erosion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1165 by Percy, posted 07-14-2014 11:05 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1736 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 1169 of 1304 (733132)
07-14-2014 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 1166 by Percy
07-14-2014 11:07 AM


Re: Legoland
Then I think she's referring to the right hand side. She's trying to say that there are no examples of sediments filling in a valley.
Ah, okay. Not into my first cup of coffee yet...
Anyway, there is a little bit of a caveat here. To cover very steep topography, such as shown in the picture, it would either have to be the filling of a lake or very rapid sea level rise.
If the former, you would have spatially restricted deposits, such as the Green River Formation.
If the latter, you would usually have erosion of the entire region closer to sea level, such as in places like coastal plains, so that total relief would be less and the area would be inundated more quickly. It is hard for me to imagine this topography being overrun by the sea without a whole lot of erosion first. Even the valleys here are quite high in elevation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1166 by Percy, posted 07-14-2014 11:07 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1171 by Faith, posted 07-14-2014 11:35 AM edge has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1736 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 1172 of 1304 (733135)
07-14-2014 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 1167 by Faith
07-14-2014 11:16 AM


Re: Geological Time Scale REQUIRES ascent to make sense
Oddly enough, I suppose, I don't start with any such premise, I am truly starting from observation of all those diagrams and pictures I've seen and they fit that scenario.
So, you don't start with a biblical perspective? I'm sorry but that stretches my credulity.
Eroding the lumpy surface flat enough for deposition to lay down neat horizontal layers that don't have to fill in the valleys is already beyond the possible (and if you can't see valleys in that diagram there's something wrong with your eyes), ...
Then you need to explain what Percy just pointed out. The island of Shinumo Quartzite which penetrates upward, through the Tapeats.
... and such deposition could only happen by water anyway and where is that going to come from?
As I said the quartzite formed a resistant ridge around which the Tapeats was deposited. In fact, that means that it was already very resistant (lithified) at the time attesting to its relatively older age.
Oh I know: in millions of years we can count on ANYTHING we need to satisfy the theory.
And this is a problem?
Meanwhile we've got, in four diagrams so far (GC-GS, Great Britain cross section, Percy's of the Gulf of Mexico, and this one of Utah) what I've been calling the Geologic Column, all those layers that would have originally been stacked neatly and horizontally, obviously to a great depth in all those examples, probably in all cases even up to the Holocene level though that isn't apparent on this latest one or the one of Great Britain (just because they aren't labeled), still probably very close because that's a LOT of layers represented there. Anyway, four places where there was this original stack of horizontal layers that do customarily get labeled with time periods in the hundreds of millions, and after they are all laid down then and only then are they distorted: eroded, folded, sagging into a salt layer and so on.
And the problem is?
I have asked you repeatedly for some kind of principle that requires deformation to occur in every location on earth. You have failed to do so.
There must be more out there. And you all just blithely imagine more layers getting laid down on top of this formation. I find that eyepoppingly ludicrous and don't see why you don't.
And yet we see it all the time...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1167 by Faith, posted 07-14-2014 11:16 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1175 by Faith, posted 07-14-2014 11:47 AM edge has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024