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Author Topic:   So I Wrote A Book On The Scientific Method
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 168 (730198)
06-25-2014 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Faith
06-25-2014 6:15 AM


Here is a Wikipedia article on Scientific Method for reference, or offer one of your own.
Typical Faith unhelpful post. A bare link which when followed provides absolutely nothing helpful to her argument.
At least you aren't posting your non-science in the science forums this time. I thought perhaps you'd learned something about endorsing web pages that you had not even read.
ABE:
I thought I'd demonstrate a more useful post. If some point of a large article is helpful, and you actually have a point to make, you might supplement your link thusly:
Historical and operational science - RationalWiki
quote:
The term "Operational science" and the creationist understanding of "Historical science" are not considered valid scientific terminology, and primarily appear in arguments presented by creationists about whether ideas such as abiogenesis, evolution and the Big Bang Theory are really scientific. As Bill Nye pointed out when debating Ken Ham, even Ken Ham admits that the distinction is entirely a creationist invention, and no scientist not on the AiG payroll agrees with him about it.
Of course you won't do that if you are just blowing smoke.
Edited by NoNukes, : Add link, quote.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Faith, posted 06-25-2014 6:15 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by herebedragons, posted 06-25-2014 11:18 AM NoNukes has replied
 Message 21 by Faith, posted 06-25-2014 1:25 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 19 of 168 (730216)
06-25-2014 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by herebedragons
06-25-2014 11:18 AM


Do you know what Ham actually said, because I find it hard to believe that he would openly, and distinctly admit that since it is so crucial to the YEC position.
I do not. The statement is likely to be only a slight exaggeration. My impression of Ham is that he is completely upfront and honest during debates. In that respect he's head and shoulders above that felon, Creationisth Hall of Famer, Hovind.
I cannot find a transcript of anything but the Q&A section of the debate, and that portion did not involve any back and forth between Nye and Ham.
Edited by NoNukes, : fix tag

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by herebedragons, posted 06-25-2014 11:18 AM herebedragons has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Faith, posted 06-25-2014 1:24 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 22 of 168 (730220)
06-25-2014 2:29 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Faith
06-25-2014 1:25 PM


The link I posted is a general presentation of the Scientific Method which I thought would help give structure to any discussion on the subject, so I don't get what you are objecting to.
I made the substance of my objection completely clear. You could not possible be this obtuse, so perhaps I accidentally typed my post in Latin.
No, upon review, I see that it is reasonably understandable English and includes an example of what might constitute a useful post. You are an idiot.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Faith, posted 06-25-2014 1:25 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Faith, posted 06-25-2014 2:36 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 168 (730228)
06-25-2014 4:13 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Faith
06-25-2014 1:24 PM


Re: historical vs hard science
No one would argue that there are no distinctions between geology and physics. The question instead is whether geology is not science and is accordingly not fit for reaching scientific conclusions. The larger question is whether or not observation sciences have that problem.
The article you link to simply does not support such a conclusion. Since you cannot be bothered to show us how this link supports your or Ham's position, here is a quote from the conclusion showing that it does not.
quote:
In this account of geological reasoning I have argued that while geology depends in part on the classic deductive-nomological
method of the experimental sciences, geology is also distinguished by a discrete set of logical procedures. Viewing geology from
the perspective of physics skews our understanding of geological reasoning. Geology only partially lives up to the classic model of
scientific reasoning. But rather than viewing geology as somehow a lesser or derivative science, I have argued that geological reasoning
provides an outstanding model of another type of scientific reasoning based in the techniques of hermeneutics and those of the historical sciences. Geology is a preeminent example of a synthetic science, combining a variety of logical techniques in the solution of its problems.
Hardly an indictment of geology as a science. Your welcome to pick out whatever you think supports your position, but there really does not seem to be much here. I hope asking you to support your position isn't too onerous a request.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Faith, posted 06-25-2014 1:24 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Faith, posted 06-25-2014 4:27 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 33 of 168 (730240)
06-25-2014 9:58 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Faith
06-25-2014 4:27 PM


Re: historical vs hard science
All the link was for was to demonstrate that Geology has been considered an inferior science because it's historical and interpretive.
Your claim was that it was an example of someone other than a person on AIG's payroll who agreed with Ham.
And as the quote I provided indicates, the paper does not make the case for geology being an inferior science, or being unable to discern things from the past.
If you've got a case showing otherwise, then make it.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Faith, posted 06-25-2014 4:27 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by PaulK, posted 06-26-2014 1:55 AM NoNukes has not replied
 Message 37 by Faith, posted 06-27-2014 10:13 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 50 of 168 (733011)
07-13-2014 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Tangle
07-13-2014 12:19 PM


Can anyone put me straight - does a scientific theory HAVE to be predictive? Is explanatory enough? I need a credible reference either way.
A description that makes no predictions is untestable. And the central part of applying the scientific method is testing of hypotheses.
For what part of the above do you require a reference?
Scientific method - Wikipedia
quote:
Prediction: This step involves determining the logical consequences of the hypothesis. One or more predictions are then selected for further testing. The more unlikely that a prediction would be correct simply by coincidence, then the more convincing it would be if the prediction were fulfilled; evidence is also stronger if the answer to the prediction is not already known, due to the effects of hindsight bias (see also postdiction). Ideally, the prediction must also distinguish the hypothesis from likely alternatives; if two hypotheses make the same prediction, observing the prediction to be correct is not evidence for either one over the other. (These statements about the relative strength of evidence can be mathematically derived using Bayes' Theorem.)
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Tangle, posted 07-13-2014 12:19 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Tangle, posted 07-13-2014 1:43 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 56 of 168 (733047)
07-13-2014 4:27 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Tangle
07-13-2014 1:43 PM


It seems to me that geological theories are explanations of the past that can not be tested by looking to the future.
Predictions means outcomes required by a hypothesis. Those predictions need not be of the future. For example, when Einstein showed that his theory of gravity reproduced the anomalies of Mercury's orbit, where those anomalies were not explained by Newtonian gravitation, Einstein was providing verification of his hypothesis. Einstein showed that his hypothesis fit past data.
If the predictions are of the future, that is great. That would increase the chance that the prediction was legitimate and not developed by fudging. Some cranks even today insist incorrectly that Einstein put in fudge factors to get Mercury's orbit correct. But the fudge factors simply are not there. Einstein's equations are about as elegant as science gets.
A purely descriptive hypothesis, as I understand it, would have no ability to anticipate something we did not already know, regardless of whether that something was in the future or had happened in the past. It would merely explain what we see. There would be no way to scientifically examine such a hypothesis.
Perhaps our difference is merely about the meaning of prediction.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Tangle, posted 07-13-2014 1:43 PM Tangle has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 57 of 168 (733049)
07-13-2014 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Tangle
07-13-2014 3:40 PM


have found a few that don't seem to require it.
Could you provide some examples? That would seem to be the quickest way to resolve the question.
My personal view, for the reasons I have given, is that non-predictive means untestable.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Tangle, posted 07-13-2014 3:40 PM Tangle has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 58 of 168 (733051)
07-13-2014 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Dr Adequate
07-07-2014 12:51 AM


I read the first chapter and have some questions relating to style and choice of examples. I am off all next week and I will give you some comments by Tuesday.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-07-2014 12:51 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-13-2014 6:37 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 61 of 168 (733071)
07-13-2014 6:08 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Tangle
07-13-2014 5:35 PM


Re: Just a thought ...
I thought that I would find something definitive at talkorigins - but see if you can find the word 'prediction' on this page
The word prediction does not appear. But then the word hypothesis appears only three times, the term falsification does not appear at all, nor does the word scientific method.
I don't think anyone is proposing that predicting the future is a required part of the scientific method. If you are using prediction in only that sense, then predicting the future is not required of science.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Tangle, posted 07-13-2014 5:35 PM Tangle has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 65 of 168 (733089)
07-13-2014 11:12 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by RAZD
07-13-2014 8:34 PM


Re: Just a thought ...
Thus every time a fossil is found it is a test of the theory of evolution's ability to explain the fossil record.
I agree. In what sense are the requirement that any new fossils will fit into a nest hierarchy (e.g. no crocoducks) not predictions of the future?
No, we cannot predict which X-man humanity will evolve into in the future, or even whether descendants of humans will survive. But there is no requirement for that in the scientific method.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by RAZD, posted 07-13-2014 8:34 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by RAZD, posted 07-14-2014 6:36 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 70 of 168 (733104)
07-14-2014 7:22 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by Tangle
07-14-2014 4:44 AM


Predictions are necessary because they are a required part of the scientific method. If you are looking at definitions of theory that do not even mention the scientific method, you are not looking in the right place.
It is possible to talk about theories without discussing details of how they are tested. That's why your search technique is not working.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Tangle, posted 07-14-2014 4:44 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Tangle, posted 07-14-2014 5:08 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 74 of 168 (733194)
07-14-2014 10:53 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by Tangle
07-14-2014 5:08 PM


Please provide an authoritative source for F=ma...
Quite so. So I expect you will be able to demonstrate that rather than simply assert it. That's all I'm asking. Point me to an authorative source.
It is difficult to avoid finding an authoritative source providing exactly what you require. My question, asked several times is how you avoided finding references yourself, and I've pointed out your errors. To find references you simply look for sources describing the scientific method rather than for those simply discussing theory.
http://www.colby.edu/biology/BI17x/expt_method.html
Scientific Method
http://carm.org/scientific-method
Scientific method - Wikipedia
If you want to insist on finding your response in an authoritative article, you can conduct your search on google scholar.
See page 81 of the following law review article.
http://illinoislawreview.org/...ent/articles/2002/4/Ulen.pdf
Article contrasting types of prediction:
LMU Build
My point was that your own arguments indicating that prediction might not be required were nonsense. Is failing to find "prediction" on a single talkorigins page that does not describe the details of testing theories more persuasive than a wikipedia article describing prediction as a vital part of the scientific method?
I challenge you to find a serious article on the scientific method that does not require prediction as a method of testing hypothesis. I asked you for references, but you did not see any reason to answer my request or my criticisms of what you did provide.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Tangle, posted 07-14-2014 5:08 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by Tangle, posted 07-15-2014 3:38 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 78 of 168 (733202)
07-15-2014 8:39 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by Tangle
07-15-2014 3:38 AM


Re: Please provide an authoritative source for F=ma...
What do you consider authoritative?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Tangle, posted 07-15-2014 3:38 AM Tangle has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 81 of 168 (733206)
07-15-2014 8:53 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by Tangle
07-15-2014 3:38 AM


Re: Please provide an authoritative source for F=ma...
My request was to find an authoritative source for the definition of a theory that includes prediction as being a necessary part.
Yes, and I have explained that your request, as stated is nonsense. The scientific method requires prediction. Every source that discusses the scientific method in detail provides that information. Do any of us care about theories that are not compliant with the scientific method? Do you consider non scientific explanation to be a theory?
I provided two quotes which don't contain it and a book which has a whole chapter dedicated to describing a theory which does not mention predictive ability at all.
You provided two non-authoritative sources by your own definition. Your sources do not say that theory does not require prediction or even raise a question about that proposition. They simply do not say anything at all on the subject. My references were at least as authoritative as yours. And your web page did not even associate theory with the scientific method.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Tangle, posted 07-15-2014 3:38 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by Tangle, posted 07-15-2014 10:24 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
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