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Author Topic:   SCIENCE: -- "observational science" vs "historical science" vs ... science.
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 858 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


(4)
Message 256 of 614 (732116)
07-03-2014 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 199 by Faith
07-02-2014 11:56 AM


Re: Siccar Point
that is just a lot of pedantic nitpickery
Typical avoidance strategy. No its not pendantic nitpickery. Its an example that illustrates how scientific discovery works when we cannot directly observe a phenomenon. There are numerous examples.
Who went to the sun and dipped out a piece so that we could test it to find out of what is what made up of. How can we be so certain that it is made up of primarily Hydrogen? How was the element Helium discovered to exist on the sun before it had been found on the earth?
How was the process of photosynthesis determined? Or the electron transport chain?
How about the atomic theory? Or mechanisms of organic chemical reactions? That was the hardest thing about Organic Chemistry; it was so theoretical. Put some chemicals in a tube and a reaction happens ... so what? And when you predict that a certain reaction will happen based on the molecular structure and then run the actual reaction, you may find that the expected product only makes up 75% of the final product, the other 25% are alternate products. What's up with that?
Your insistence that someone has to witness events is completely unfounded.
There are no competing theories of its structure, right?
There were when it first came out, but the evidence won the day.
It works and nobody doubts it.
But why? That's the question. Why does it work? The "theory" is the explanation of that. Why does the theory work?
Parts of the sequence of thought about it can be questioned and I question them.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with forming alternate hypotheses. In fact, that process is vital to science. However, the more accepted the current theory, the better the alternate hypothesis needs to be. It can't just explain one little piece better than the current theory, it has to explain ALL of the data as well or better. Sometimes theories do have holes in them or uncertainties. An alternate hypothesis needs to not only address the uncertainties, but also the certainties as well.
An alternative hypothesis should start like this:
The current theory fails to explain phenomenon [X] because of [list of reasons]. However, my hypothesis provides a better explanation for this phenomenon.
This new proposed hypothesis then needs to be subject to scrutiny and needs to be able to defend itself against that scrutiny. If and only IF it stands up to scrutiny will it be accepted. Also realize that the more accepted the current theory is, the more scrutiny it will suffer, BECAUSE the current theory has been accepted to be the best explanation of the evidence.
Another point. Simply denying the current theory is not sufficient to overturn it. Here is a list of the reasons I have seen you insert into [list of reasons] above.
  • It happened in the unwitnessed past, so no one can be certain.
  • That evidence doesn't prove anything.
  • Billions of years doesn't make any sense.
  • Anyone should be able to look at this cross section of the GC and see that it didn't take billions of years to form.
  • The Bible says the earth is only 6,000 years old and a worldwide flood occurred 4,300 years ago.
Those are poor reasons to give if you want your alternate hypothesis to be considered.
Another bit of advice; take on small pieces at a time. There is no point in trying to overturn the "Old Earth Theory" all at once. Believe it or not, that the earth is old is a conclusion not a theory. It is a conclusion that has been reached by the accumulation of many, many pieces of data and theories about that data. Instead, choose one part of the GC, for example, and develop an alternate hypothesis about how that formed.
A good example would be the contact between the Muav and the Redwall and how the Temple Butte formation fits in.
  • First describe what the current theory fails to explain.
  • Then explain how your hypothesis explains those phenomenon better.
  • Make some predictions that would have to be true if your hypothesis were true BUT would have to be false if the current theory were true.
  • Gather objections to your hypothesis and prepare to defend them.
  • Demonstrate that your hypothesis satisfies those objections. If you have to use any of the reasons from the [list of reasons] I listed above, the objections are not adequately satisfied.
  • Test your predictions.
  • If one of the predictions proves false OR any of the objections presented cannot be adequately addressed, either modify hypothesis or abandon it as untenable.
I am sincerely trying to help you here, Faith. If you truly want your ideas to be considered scientific rather than apologetic, this is the procedure you must follow. The reason no one is considering your approach scientific, is because it simply is not.
As I said, alternative hypotheses are a vital part of science. In fact, I would suggest that without alternate hypotheses we could not test anything. The hypothesis "This rock is old." would be a lousy hypothesis. A better hypothesis would be "IF this rock is old, THEN we should see [X]; IF this rock is not old (young), THEN we should see [Y]. The two hypotheses can be directly compared to determine which can better predict an expected observation.
Your mantra that "we cannot know the unobserved past" puts your hypothesis firmly on non-scientific grounds. Science deals with what we CAN know. Current hypotheses tell us what we CAN know about the past. If it is wrong and there is a better hypothesis, then you need to demonstrate that - scientifically.
HBD

Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca
"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.
Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by Faith, posted 07-02-2014 11:56 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 257 by Faith, posted 07-03-2014 12:39 PM herebedragons has replied
 Message 281 by herebedragons, posted 07-08-2014 10:17 AM herebedragons has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 257 of 614 (732118)
07-03-2014 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 256 by herebedragons
07-03-2014 12:35 PM


Re: Siccar Point
It ought to be a very simple obvious matter to just acknowledge that science that deals with the prehistoric past cannot have the certainty that testable laboratory sciences have. Good grief, even scientists have said that about historical Geology as testified by that article that has been linked more than once.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by herebedragons, posted 07-03-2014 12:35 PM herebedragons has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 258 by Coyote, posted 07-03-2014 12:49 PM Faith has replied
 Message 263 by herebedragons, posted 07-03-2014 1:08 PM Faith has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 258 of 614 (732121)
07-03-2014 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 257 by Faith
07-03-2014 12:39 PM


Re: Siccar Point
It ought to be a very simple obvious matter to just acknowledge that science that deals with the prehistoric past cannot have the certainty that testable laboratory sciences have.
Perhaps those sciences can't work things out to the number of decimal points that some other sciences can, but that is a far cry from saying that they are all wrong, which is what you are doing.
And you are doing it not because of some weakness in the methodologies of those sciences, but simply because you won't accept the answers that those sciences develop.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 257 by Faith, posted 07-03-2014 12:39 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 260 by Faith, posted 07-03-2014 12:58 PM Coyote has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 259 of 614 (732122)
07-03-2014 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 255 by ringo
07-03-2014 12:01 PM


Re: The Quest For The Rational Basis
You are right, there is no prehistoric past, I'm merely accommodating to the OE system when I say that. As long as they are talking about ages in millions of years when there was nobody around at all there is no way to establish anything with the kind of certainty often claimed for it. ABE: And besides, there was only Noah around during the Flood and he was shut up in the ark.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by ringo, posted 07-03-2014 12:01 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 261 by ringo, posted 07-03-2014 1:02 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 260 of 614 (732125)
07-03-2014 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 258 by Coyote
07-03-2014 12:49 PM


Re: Siccar Point
Perhaps those sciences can't work things out to the number of decimal points that some other sciences can, but that is a far cry from saying that they are all wrong, which is what you are doing.
Well, actually what I mean to be saying is that since it's interpretive it's not set in concrete, that's really all. Hutton's reasoning about Siccar Point is reasonable enough but it's open to being wrong in a way that the double helix is not despite attempts to say it is. It's only a hypothesis really, and I think it's wrong and would like to be able to prove it wrong with a miniature model of strata if possible. In this case I did dream up a model that might work for a test, but for most things in the prehistoric past no test is possible.
And you are doing it not because of some weakness in the methodologies of those sciences, but simply because you won't accept the answers that those sciences develop.
I came to realize there is a weakness in the methodology because of my commitment to the Flood, of course, and wouldn't have realized it otherwise, but there IS a weakness in the methodology nevertheless and that has to be acknowledged. You'd rather the weakness were just politely glossed over I suppose.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by Coyote, posted 07-03-2014 12:49 PM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 264 by NoNukes, posted 07-03-2014 1:11 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 269 by Coyote, posted 07-03-2014 1:29 PM Faith has replied
 Message 270 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-03-2014 1:59 PM Faith has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 261 of 614 (732127)
07-03-2014 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 259 by Faith
07-03-2014 12:52 PM


Re: The Quest For The Rational Basis
Faith writes:
As long as they are talking about ages in millions of years when there was nobody around at all there is no way to establish anything with the kind of certainty often claimed for it.
What's the difference between millions (billions) of years and five days? You have no witnesses for most of the creation, so you equally have no way to establish anything with the certainty you claim.

"I just rattled off that post not caring whether any of it was true or not if you want to know." -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by Faith, posted 07-03-2014 12:52 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 262 by Faith, posted 07-03-2014 1:04 PM ringo has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 262 of 614 (732128)
07-03-2014 1:04 PM
Reply to: Message 261 by ringo
07-03-2014 1:02 PM


Re: The Quest For The Rational Basis
Yes that's true. Creationism is also interpretive and historical. The complaint is that Old Earth Geology thinks it's got an unbreakable grip on the truth about the past that it cannot possibly have and that needs to be challenged.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 261 by ringo, posted 07-03-2014 1:02 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 265 by jar, posted 07-03-2014 1:12 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 266 by ringo, posted 07-03-2014 1:15 PM Faith has not replied
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herebedragons
Member (Idle past 858 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


(1)
Message 263 of 614 (732131)
07-03-2014 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 257 by Faith
07-03-2014 12:39 PM


Re: Siccar Point
We can be equally certain about anything to the extent to which we can apply the methods I outlined in the second half of my post. Sure, somethings we can apply those methods more rigorously than we can to others. Sure, in general there is more uncertainty about past events than there is about things we can study that are right in front of us; although there may be more certainty about some past events than of particular things we do have right in front of us. (example. we are more certain about the diet of many dinosaurs than we are about how a water molecule is split during photosynthesis). It all depends on the degree to which we can apply the scientific method.
Your assertion that we can't apply the scientific method to past events is unfounded. I gave you the methodology by which you could apply the scientific method to your ideas should you so desire. However, your rejection of us being able to know anything for certain about the past is intended (or at least it appears that way) only to suggest that your idea is equally valid. Its NOT. For your ideas to be considered scientific you need to play the game. If you want to approach it a different way, fine ... but that's not scientific.
Take my advice about how to apply the scientific method to your idea. Quit making excuses and using denial tactics.
HBD

Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca
"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.
Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 257 by Faith, posted 07-03-2014 12:39 PM Faith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 264 of 614 (732132)
07-03-2014 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 260 by Faith
07-03-2014 12:58 PM


Re: Siccar Point
Well, actually what I mean to be saying is that since it's interpretive it's not set in concrete, that's really all. Hutton's reasoning about Siccar Point is reasonable enough but it's open to being wrong
If you had actually said something like that before most of us would not be thinking of you as a buffoon. But it is pretty clear that the "not set in stone" sentiment is not what you expressed in your original statements. The kind of uncertainty you are talking about now would not make geology unscientific. It would just make it less certain that other sciences.
And of course, I would disagree with you on the amount of uncertainty that exists regarding Siccar point, but ultimately that is pointless. The fact that the earth is greater than 4 billion years old is just as certain as is the structure of DNA as is the fact that structures at Siccar point were not formed by a global Flood at anytime in the last 4-5000 years. The evidence for those things come from many sciences including, but not limited to geology.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 260 by Faith, posted 07-03-2014 12:58 PM Faith has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 265 of 614 (732134)
07-03-2014 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 262 by Faith
07-03-2014 1:04 PM


Re: The Quest For The Rational Basis
Yes that's true. Creationism is also interpretive and historical. The complaint is that Old Earth Geology thinks it's got an unbreakable grip on the truth about the past that it cannot possibly have and that needs to be challenged.
But geology makes no such claim, nor does the TOE.
What is and has been said is that the idea of the Biblical floods has been considered and totally refuted.
If you wish to show the earth is young have at it. Science is always searching for a better explanation. Science is always subject to change when new data or better explanations are presented, unlike your position which is fixed in fantasy and irrationality.
Edited by jar, : -'+.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(2)
Message 266 of 614 (732136)
07-03-2014 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 262 by Faith
07-03-2014 1:04 PM


Re: The Quest For The Rational Basis
Faith writes:
Creationism is also interpretive and historical.
So it is, according to you, inferior to hard sciences such as physics. See? You said something that makes sense.
Faith writes:
The complaint is that Old Earth Geology thinks it's got an unbreakable grip on the truth about the past that it cannot possibly have and that needs to be challenged.
The thing is that OE geology is based on OE chemistry and OE physics - because that's the only chemistry and physics we have. You remind me of somebody (who will remain nameless) who used to talk about "German physics" - only it turned out to be just physics.

"I just rattled off that post not caring whether any of it was true or not if you want to know." -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by Faith, posted 07-03-2014 1:04 PM Faith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 267 of 614 (732137)
07-03-2014 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 262 by Faith
07-03-2014 1:04 PM


Re: The Quest For The Rational Basis
Yes that's true. Creationism is also interpretive and historical.
In fact there is nothing more to Creationism than that. There is no scientific method based support any aspect of literal Genesis Creation or the Great Flood. None at all. The same cannot be said for scientific theories to the contrary.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by Faith, posted 07-03-2014 1:04 PM Faith has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 285 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(4)
Message 268 of 614 (732138)
07-03-2014 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 251 by Faith
07-03-2014 8:33 AM


Re: The Quest For The Rational Basis
Certainty suits knowledge of the structure of DNA, and probably Einstein's formula too, and the law of gravity and what happens if you combine certain chemicals and no doubt all kinds of other things. Experiments can be done by many people to prove such theories. Many researchers can confirm them. All you have in the case of Siccar Point is convincing others of your reasoning. That is not the same thing.
Ah. So when it comes to the theory of gravity, we have evidence, which convinces people of our reasoning, whereas when it comes to geology we merely convince people of our reasoning, by pointing out the evidence. That is not the same thing.
Wait, that is the same thing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 251 by Faith, posted 07-03-2014 8:33 AM Faith has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 269 of 614 (732144)
07-03-2014 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 260 by Faith
07-03-2014 12:58 PM


Apologetics again
Well, actually what I mean to be saying is that since it's interpretive it's not set in concrete, that's really all.
Now, that I can agree with.
I would never consider any of the theories I develop to explain my archaeological data as being set in concrete.
But you have been claiming that, in essence, we can't know anything about the past if there was nobody there to witness it. That is just plain wrong.
I came to realize there is a weakness in the methodology because of my commitment to the Flood, of course, and wouldn't have realized it otherwise, but there IS a weakness in the methodology nevertheless and that has to be acknowledged. You'd rather the weakness were just politely glossed over I suppose.
You have yet to point out a weakness. What your entire argument boils down to is "The bible said it, so I'll believe it. And I'll make up any story I can to support that--doesn't matter if it makes sense or not."
That's not a scientific method. That's apologetics.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 260 by Faith, posted 07-03-2014 12:58 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 271 by Faith, posted 07-03-2014 2:00 PM Coyote has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 285 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 270 of 614 (732149)
07-03-2014 1:59 PM
Reply to: Message 260 by Faith
07-03-2014 12:58 PM


Re: Siccar Point
Well, actually what I mean to be saying is that since it's interpretive it's not set in concrete, that's really all.
In science, nothing is set in concrete.
Hutton's reasoning about Siccar Point is reasonable enough but it's open to being wrong in a way that the double helix is not despite attempts to say it is.
But why isn't the double helix open to being wrong? Chemists have, after all, made mistakes in the past. And scientists have, after all, questioned the structure of DNA.
A number of recent papers (Rodley et al., 1976; Sasisekharan & Pattabiraman, 1976,1978; Saisekharan et al., 1977,1978; Cyriax & Gath, 1978; Pohl & Roberts, 1978) suggest that the two strands of DNA do not coil round one another but lie side-by-side.
Now, if you mean to maintain that by looking at a photograph like this:
... we can be absolutely certain that DNA is a double helix, then I should like you to expound on your reasoning.
I came to realize there is a weakness in the methodology because of my commitment to the Flood, of course, and wouldn't have realized it otherwise, but there IS a weakness in the methodology nevertheless and that has to be acknowledged.
But it turns out, when you tell us what these weaknesses are, that they're just the same problems that apply to any claim --- that they're the same weaknesses attendant on the methodology of finding out whether there's an elephant in the room by looking in the room.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 260 by Faith, posted 07-03-2014 12:58 PM Faith has not replied

  
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