Summations Only

So half a million years and what I figured was 20 thousand feet in a million years so now it's down to 10 thousand feet since they were formed and they should still have eroded away to dust by that calculation.abe: Sorry the second figure makes it a tenth of that time so 2000 feet should be gone. What does that leave?abe: Let's see. According to Wikipedia theyre 300 to 350 feet in height, so any calculation based on Percy's rate would have them demolished long since. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

We're eroding the CLIFFS, Dr A., not the channel.

40 to 60 million years is the age given for the rock from which the hoodoos were carved, by the Old Earthers who wrote the article for the National Park Service, whom I suppose to be real people, but maybe they are really robots programmed to spout OE stuff. HERE.Do you have some reason to suppose that the hoodoos didn't start eroding at that point?abe: Seems to me if we accept the rate given by Percy in 481, about a cm or 2 inches per hundred years, which would come to 20,000 inches or 1666 feet of erosion in a million years, you'd have to figure the erosion started AWFULLY recently to have left such tall formations still standing. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Sigh. OK. So it's 450 thousand down to 180 thousand years old, so that means that at the rate given by Percy if they are half a million years old they'd have added ten thousand feet to the English Channel, or at the lower age about 2000 feet since they were formed. Is that feasible?Let's get back to the hoodoos and the monuments.

But there is no reason whatever to suppose the erosion started recently enough for that to be the case. The fact that they wouldn't be here if it started when of course it did start, right after the cliffs were formed from which they were carved, simply proves that the OE figures are wrong.You are going to have to explain the implications of your quote.

When the Flood waters receded. That's what formed the cliffs of the Grand Staircase, which include the cliffs from which the hoodoos were shaped. Uh huh, but on Flood timing the time is quite short. The layers were laid down by the Flood waters. As the waters receded they broke up a lot of the upper strata leaving all kinds of interesting formations in the Southwest.So you've explained away the hoodoos (maybe) and Dover. How are you going to explain away the rate of erosion of the monuments in Monument Valley? I can hardly wait.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

In Message 480 Percy says the monuments have been exposed to erosion for tens of millions of years and that the sandstone erodes at a rate of around 15 cm per thousand years, and siltstone at a rate of about 5 cm per thousand years.That's about 5000 feet in ten million years for the sandstone. Pretty much takes care of that, shouldn't be any left standing without even multiplying the "tens" of millions. And 1660 feet in ten million years for the siltstone. Kinda does it there too wouldn't you say? So which part do you disagree with, the tens of millions of years since they started eroding or the rate or what?ABE: Of course the truth of the matter is that layers were deposited in the Flood to a depth of some three miles or more, then when the water receded it eroded away a lot of the upper strata all over the Southwest leaving all those interesting formations. After the water was gone the formations were subject to yearly erosion. That's how it really happened.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : add URL

Percy said it began eroding tens of millions of years ago. I already said that.

There is nothing to summarize. The thread was already off topic before I posted Message 448. If it was going to be interrupted for being off topic that should have been done pages ago because it picked up momentum and to stop it now is cruel. So many threads have been left to go severely off topic over the last many months why even bother at all? Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Ringo, first you said at the rate given it should be gone in ten thousand years, and that I don't know when it began eroding. I answered that Percy gave a figure for that of tens of millions of years ago so if it would be gone in ten thousand years from the time it started eroding that means it should have been long gone a long long time already. I don't get how there can be any problem understanding this. Double or triple the volume of the monument at that point if you want, it's still going to have been long gone by now.Of course extrapolating backwards would solve the problem, quite easily of course, because it's basically stacking the deck, but Percy gave a positive number rather than extrapolating backwards and if erosion started tens of millions of years ago but it would only take one million or less to completely wipe out the formation, it should have been long gone and why there would be a question about this is hard to fathom. It didn't just start eroding, which would mean it would be gone in ten thousand years from now, it started eroding tens of millions of years AGO, what aren't you getting here? Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Make your case, produce the evidence, or start a thread to discuss it Pressie.

OK I get it, you're all assuming those monuments were bigger enough to have been eroding for tens of millions of years and still not disintegrated. Sigh. I look at them and fit them into a footprint that can't be as wide as the scree talus so I "know" they haven't been eroding that long.So now we need to add girth to the things and see how big they had to be originally to have been eroding for all those millions of years and still not be eroded away. The thought makes me tired.At least the hoodoos are confined to a measurable space where they were carved out of the cliff so we can't add endless amounts of material to them, though of course the OE mind is going to add all that to the freestanding monuments. Sigh.

All that's true but long periods are not required on Flood timing. It deposited the sediments miles deep, the great depth compacted them, the receding Flood waters eroded away various portions of the strata, exposing various formations -- cliffs, canyons, buttes, whatever -- which are then eroded by normal processes yearly.

Sure, that will do for an OE theory about how it happened. Of course I prefer the Flood explanation which has the receding water draining more or less sheetwise across the surface but following any grooves that happen to develop and deepening them. If the surface is arched like that then the surface would form cracks as illustrated, and the water would of course run into those cracks and deepen them, cutting deeper grooves as more sediment, which is not yet rock, is dislodged, gradually carving out forms between the cracks but running sheetwise wherever the surface is more or less level until eventually we have the freestanding buttes which at that point are somewhat larger versions of the monuments we have now, and then they are eroded by weather for the next 4300 years until they are what we see today.It works.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Three or more miles deep.Compacted very hard, soft enough to be fairly easily shaped, hard enough not to slump. Lithification would happen later (ABE: although with all the water trickling through the layers it could already have begun /abe).Edited by Faith, : No reason given.