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Author Topic:   Depositional Models of Sea Transgressions/Regressions - Walther's Law
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 456 of 533 (730431)
06-28-2014 3:11 AM
Reply to: Message 455 by Faith
06-28-2014 2:44 AM


Re: All that erosion that sculpted around the strata
How about thinking about the timing, WHEN all this happened, because that has enormous implications for Old Earth theory.
OK, let's think about the timing. The Grand Canon Supergroup was laid down between ~ 1200 and 740 million years ago. The Tonto Group dates from the Cambrian Period. Then the rest is Carboniferous and Permian, with the Kaibab Limestone being laid down about 270 million years ago. The cutting of the canyon is relatively recent, say within the last 20 million years.
This means that, yes, the canyon cut through the strata after they were in place, there being no other way for a canyon to cut through strata, because duh.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 455 by Faith, posted 06-28-2014 2:44 AM Faith has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 459 of 533 (730441)
06-28-2014 4:01 AM
Reply to: Message 458 by Faith
06-28-2014 3:50 AM


No erosion "such" as what? If you mean that the Colorado Plateau contains only one Grand Canyon, we concede the point --- but do not see the need to adduce fictional explanations.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 458 by Faith, posted 06-28-2014 3:50 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 460 by Faith, posted 06-28-2014 4:07 AM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 461 of 533 (730445)
06-28-2014 4:12 AM
Reply to: Message 460 by Faith
06-28-2014 4:07 AM


As usual, the thing you are supposing is wrong. You should really suppose things less often.

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 Message 460 by Faith, posted 06-28-2014 4:07 AM Faith has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 468 of 533 (730468)
06-28-2014 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 467 by Faith
06-28-2014 11:44 AM


Knock myself out being clear in that post and get back all this weird stuff, everything from trivial silly nonsense about how of course it all had to be in place for the canyon to get cut into it ...
If that is nonsense, let's see what you consider to be sense.
So the erosion is too much for 4300 years? That's pretty funny. It's certainly way too little for a couple billion years. The whole monument should have been dissolved into dust by now.
Since, as I may have pointed out to you before, assertion is not argument, perhaps you could show your working.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 467 by Faith, posted 06-28-2014 11:44 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 469 by Faith, posted 06-28-2014 11:50 AM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 470 of 533 (730471)
06-28-2014 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 463 by Faith
06-28-2014 8:05 AM


You also "show" me what you are calling "erosional patterns" in the Grand Canyon and I disagree with all that too. Sorry. You'd need to have LOTS more erosion BETWEEN layers to make the case you need to make against what I'm pointing out. Lots more, tons more, visibly tons more.
If you genuinely have a way to calculate how much erosion is associated with an erosional surface, now would be a great time to disclose what it is. Generations of geologists to come will be your debtors.
But if, as I suspect, you are just making stuff up, I would advise you, not for the first time, to stop.
The MASSIVE erosion of the entire stack of layers all at one time is something else entirely and it's fantastic evidence against the Old Earth and for the Young Earth and for the receding Flood as the source of the massive erosion.
Or for the agency which is very obviously responsible for said erosion, namely the Colorado river. You know, the thing that flows through the Grand Canyon? If that is more than a coincidence, you have yet to explain how it got there.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 463 by Faith, posted 06-28-2014 8:05 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 473 by Faith, posted 06-28-2014 12:34 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 471 of 533 (730472)
06-28-2014 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 469 by Faith
06-28-2014 11:50 AM


Percy didn't show his working, he just asserted that's too much erosion there and that the Flood wouldn't have left the monuments standing like that. That's just assertion.
You're free to ask him. As I'm asking you.
Again, a few hundred million years should have reduced it to a pile of dust.
Show your working.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 469 by Faith, posted 06-28-2014 11:50 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 472 by Faith, posted 06-28-2014 12:28 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 474 of 533 (730477)
06-28-2014 12:37 PM
Reply to: Message 472 by Faith
06-28-2014 12:28 PM


Let me guess that you don't have a clue how long it took that amount of erosion to fall off those monuments.
That would be why I'm not making quantitative claims that I can't back up with quantitative arguments.
Unlike, for example, you.
I think it's largely a matter of intuition myself ...
Says it all, doesn't it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 472 by Faith, posted 06-28-2014 12:28 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 477 by Faith, posted 06-28-2014 12:54 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 475 of 533 (730478)
06-28-2014 12:38 PM
Reply to: Message 473 by Faith
06-28-2014 12:34 PM


Path was created, water flowed through it, became Colorado River.
Do you know what a river is?
Anyway we're getting off the fact that massive erosion occurred after all the strata were in place ...
This again? Yes, time runs forward. We concede the point.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 473 by Faith, posted 06-28-2014 12:34 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 476 by Faith, posted 06-28-2014 12:40 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 478 of 533 (730482)
06-28-2014 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 477 by Faith
06-28-2014 12:54 PM


Well, here's the National Park Service on the subject of the Bryce Canyon hoodoos:
Unfortunately hoodoos don't last very long. The same processes that create hoodoos are equally aggressive and intent on their destruction. The average rate of erosion is calculated at 2-4 feet (.6-1.3 m) every 100 years. So it is that Bryce Canyon, as we know it, will not always be here. As the canyon continues to erode to the west it will eventually capture (perhaps 3 million years from now) the watershed of the East Fork of the Sevier River. Once this river flows through the Bryce Amphitheater it will dominate the erosional pattern, replacing hoodoos with a "V" shaped canyon and steep cliff walls typical of the weathering and erosional patterns created by flowing water.
So yeah, the hoodoos will only last a few million years. But obviously that clock starts ticking at the point when the erosional processes start carving the hoodoos, not at the point where the sediment that will eventually form them is laid down.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 477 by Faith, posted 06-28-2014 12:54 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 479 by Faith, posted 06-28-2014 1:31 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 483 of 533 (730506)
06-28-2014 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 479 by Faith
06-28-2014 1:31 PM


The thing is, at the rate given, they have obviously NOT been eroding for the supposed millions of years since they were formed.
Well, show me who's doing the supposing: quote me someone who sets an age on an individual hoodoo. Then we'll look at how they did it and whether it contradicts the figure given for the rate of erosion. But if this person exists only in your head, this will diminish your triumph.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 479 by Faith, posted 06-28-2014 1:31 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 486 by herebedragons, posted 06-28-2014 6:03 PM Dr Adequate has not replied
 Message 490 by Faith, posted 06-29-2014 10:14 AM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 502 of 533 (730621)
06-29-2014 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 490 by Faith
06-29-2014 10:14 AM


I did some arithmetic based on figures Percy gave for the erosion of the hoodoos and the monuments. Seems to me all the numbers he gave would have had all the formations mentioned wiped out totally well before the time estimated on the basis of Old Earth reckoning. You can tell me if my arithmetic is off.
Well since use of the forum Search function shows that Percy has never said how old any given hoodoo is, it's not just your "arithmetic" that's off.

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 Message 490 by Faith, posted 06-29-2014 10:14 AM Faith has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 503 of 533 (730623)
06-29-2014 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 488 by Faith
06-29-2014 10:03 AM


Wouldn't that then be about 20,000 feet in a million years which should have totally wiped out the Dover cliffs many times over by now if they are that old?
The tide-based erosional forces wouldn't kick in until different erosional forces had opened up the English Channel.
That's about a foot per 2000 years or 1000 feet in 2 million years, or 10,000 feet in 20 millions years, sufficient I would think to wipe out a sandstone monument in the time normally allotted since their formation.
* sighs *
The end point is not the start point.
* shakes head *
Creationists ...
"This man can't be seventy. Why, he's clearly very old. So in seventy years he'd be dead!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 488 by Faith, posted 06-29-2014 10:03 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 504 by Faith, posted 06-29-2014 1:28 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 507 of 533 (730629)
06-29-2014 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 504 by Faith
06-29-2014 1:28 PM


I'm not talking about the future of the Dover Cliffs, which is what that remark implies
What it implies is that you're conflating the past and the future of the geological features you're talking about. Which you are.
but that at the rate given by Percy they couldn't be existing NOW given OE assumptions of when they were formed, they'd long since have eroded away to nothing.
No, they will erode away to nothing in the future. There was not enough time for them to have been eroded away to nothing in the past, because the English Channel hasn't been there that long.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 504 by Faith, posted 06-29-2014 1:28 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 509 by Faith, posted 06-29-2014 1:44 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 510 of 533 (730633)
06-29-2014 1:45 PM
Reply to: Message 508 by Faith
06-29-2014 1:40 PM


I don't get this. Percy gave a rate for the erosion of the Dover cliffs, I computed it to see how long it would take for it to erode down to nothing. The Cliffs themselves. So the erosion would supposedly begin at the point that they WERE cliffs. Some millions of years ago? Or you tell me when they became exposed cliffs and we'll go from there.
Wikipedia gives an age of between 450,000 and 180,000 years.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 508 by Faith, posted 06-29-2014 1:40 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 511 by Faith, posted 06-29-2014 1:49 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 512 of 533 (730635)
06-29-2014 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 509 by Faith
06-29-2014 1:44 PM


Fine, then if they began to be cliffs when the English Channel was formed which was not millions of years ago, OK by me but I am not talking about the future only computing from what I thought the time of formation was which is usually millions of years in the past. So that's not true for Dover, so let's just drop it and go back to formations that WERE supposedly formed millions of years ago such as the hoodoos of Bryce Canyon ...
Wait. Let me stop you there. I have asked you already. Who is doing the supposing? Who, Faith, who says that any given hoodoo in Bryce Canyon is millions of years old? Do these people have names? Do they have real existence? Are they of flesh and blood, or are they ghosts and shadows that haunt the recesses of your brain?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 509 by Faith, posted 06-29-2014 1:44 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 517 by Faith, posted 06-29-2014 2:00 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
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