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Author Topic:   Some water measurements for the Flood
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 136 of 276 (729992)
06-22-2014 8:19 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by Faith
06-22-2014 6:47 PM


Re: why not miracle
What Dr. Adequate said was no different than anything you said apart from his actually having some explanatory power. You only object because it was him saying it and not you. There is literally nothing he said that departs from the spirit of what you've said.

Organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation, an accident. Your lives are measured in years and decades. You wither and die. We are eternal, the pinnacle of evolution and existence. Before us, you are nothing. Your extinction is inevitable. We are the end of everything.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by Faith, posted 06-22-2014 6:47 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by Faith, posted 06-22-2014 8:34 PM hooah212002 has seen this message but not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 137 of 276 (729993)
06-22-2014 8:31 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by hooah212002
06-22-2014 8:17 PM


Re: why not miracle
discovered that the Bible is a more trustworthy source being the word of God and all.
That is fine for faith and belief matters. But you are taking part in a science thread and you continue to rail against science.
I guess you're never going to get it are you? You can't follow the logic of what I'm saying because your mental bias has hardened into concrete.
Just for your information, about six or seven of those thirteen years I've been a member here I was not posting anything or even reading the forums. Actually may be more like eight or nine.
As for whom I may or may not have swayed, who knows. But the hardened bias IS pretty thick here.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by hooah212002, posted 06-22-2014 8:17 PM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by hooah212002, posted 06-22-2014 8:36 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 138 of 276 (729994)
06-22-2014 8:34 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by hooah212002
06-22-2014 8:19 PM


Re: why not miracle
What Dr. Adequate said was no different than anything you said apart from his actually having some explanatory power. You only object because it was him saying it and not you. There is literally nothing he said that departs from the spirit of what you've said.
What an absurd idea. I'd be really happy if Dr. A said it in the spirit I said it rather than ridiculing it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by hooah212002, posted 06-22-2014 8:19 PM hooah212002 has seen this message but not replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 139 of 276 (729995)
06-22-2014 8:36 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by Faith
06-22-2014 8:31 PM


Re: why not miracle
But the hardened bias IS pretty thick here.
Even a broken clock is right twice a day.
And with that, my patience with you has worn thin and I will bow out. I tried to have a simple discussion with you, on your terms, but you are insistent on laying baseless and inflammatory accusations at everyone that you make it impossible to have a decent and successful discussion that is beneficial to all parties involved. I took some time off here at EvC to reflect on my poor attitude and I don't want you to make that all for naught. There is simply no reasoning with the clinically insane.
Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given.

Organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation, an accident. Your lives are measured in years and decades. You wither and die. We are eternal, the pinnacle of evolution and existence. Before us, you are nothing. Your extinction is inevitable. We are the end of everything.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Faith, posted 06-22-2014 8:31 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by Faith, posted 06-22-2014 8:41 PM hooah212002 has seen this message but not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 140 of 276 (729996)
06-22-2014 8:41 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by hooah212002
06-22-2014 8:36 PM


Re: why not miracle
That's very sad. Wrong, and sad.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by hooah212002, posted 06-22-2014 8:36 PM hooah212002 has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 141 of 276 (729997)
06-22-2014 9:21 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by Faith
06-22-2014 7:56 PM


Re: why not miracle
You seem to be inventing problems that don't exist. What on earth is wrong with the BIBLICAL sources of the water in the "fountains of the deep" and the waters above the firmament of Genesis 1:7? Those are the two sources given by MOST creationists that I'm aware of.
Obviously there is more to the issue than that. In order to justify your claim that the sources of the flood are not miraculous, you find the need to depart from both the Bible and science.
For example, you say that the windows of heaven opened the same way clouds do today to release rain. Well clouds do not open up. Clouds are water vapor, so that's obviously not correct. There is no similarity whatsoever between the way water vapor drops form and fall from clouds and opening of the windows of heaven. You just pretend there is so that you can claim that opening of the windows of heaven is not a miracle despite the fact that it meets your own definition.
Then I have to remind you that the water canopy did not disappear at the end of the events in Genesis, something that reinforces the conclusion that the opening of the windows of heaven was a one time event.
I refer to "other creationists" to answer this insistence here on imputing my view of the Bible to me as if I didn't share it with others.
I'm not interested in how many other people believe as you do, because the question is not about doctrine but about the text. I've asked you on several occasions to tie your interpretation of things to the Bible. You've responded with things like, please let me believe what I wanted to believe, and accused me of accepting only a single interpretation, or cited other Creationists, or told me that it is useless to pursue details. In short, you've stayed as far away from citing the Bible in answering the question as is possible.
At this point I don't expect you to do any better.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by Faith, posted 06-22-2014 7:56 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by Faith, posted 06-22-2014 9:50 PM NoNukes has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 142 of 276 (729998)
06-22-2014 9:24 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by Dr Adequate
06-22-2014 8:16 PM


Re: why not miracle
Okay, a perfect circle. How does that explain why turning the Mojave green outside the circle is harder to provide a natural explanation for? Or isn't that part important? Anyway, if you're confusing me then you're probably confusing Faith, too.
--Percy
Edited by Percy, : Typos.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-22-2014 8:16 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-22-2014 9:43 PM Percy has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 143 of 276 (729999)
06-22-2014 9:43 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by Percy
06-22-2014 9:24 PM


Re: why not miracle
Okay, a perfect circle. How does that explain why turning the Mojave green outside the circle is harder to provide a natural explanation for?
Because natural meteorological phenomena aren't good at geometry.
If the whole Mojave became lush and green, that might conceivably be the result of a natural phenomenon. If an exception is made for Nevada's own little Nineveh, this looks more like it's intentional. If the exception exhibits geometric regularity, yet more so. And if the effect to be produced is announced in advance, it would be unquestionable.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by Percy, posted 06-22-2014 9:24 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by Faith, posted 06-22-2014 10:04 PM Dr Adequate has not replied
 Message 148 by Percy, posted 06-22-2014 10:04 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 144 of 276 (730000)
06-22-2014 9:50 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by NoNukes
06-22-2014 9:21 PM


Re: why not miracle
You seem to be inventing problems that don't exist. What on earth is wrong with the BIBLICAL sources of the water in the "fountains of the deep" and the waters above the firmament of Genesis 1:7? Those are the two sources given by MOST creationists that I'm aware of.
Obviously there is more to the issue than that.
Obviously? Not that I've ever claimed.
In order to justify your claim that the sources of the flood are not miraculous, you find the need to depart from both the Bible and science.
Nonsense. I see neither the waters above the firmament nor the fountains of the deep as miraculous, but as natural conditions of the pre-Flood world. You are continuing to make stuff up.
For example, you say that the windows of heaven opened the same way clouds do today to release rain. Well clouds do not open up. Clouds are water vapor, so that's obviously not correct. There is no similarity whatsoever between the way water vapor drops form and fall from clouds and opening of the windows of heaven. You just pretend there is so that you can claim that opening of the windows of heaven is not a miracle despite the fact that it meets your own definition.
The water canopy theory of creationists is about water VAPOR, a LOT of it, suspended in the atmosphere, which is exactly the situation with clouds. Therefore it would have rained exactly the same way clouds do, and the opening of the windows of heaven is a metaphor for that first cloudburst. There certainly IS a similarity and that's what I was talking about. Why are you making it into something else? You have some idea of your own about "windows of heaven" which neither I nor the creationists I agree with have, yet you feel free to upbraid us with YOUR idea?
The windows of heaven being opened was the condensing of the VAPOR of the "canopy" into rain: Canopy theory - CreationWiki, the encyclopedia of creation science
That idea may have been discredited but it seems to be mostly just that it's not the only source of the Flood water because the fountains of the deep is included. In any case you are imposing some idea of your own on me. The canopy idea IS about VAPOR, the stuff clouds are made of, and its becoming rain is all the opening of the windows of heaven referred to.
Then I have to remind you that the water canopy did not disappear at the end of the events in Genesis, something that reinforces the conclusion that the opening of the windows of heaven was a one time event.
I never said it disappeared so your saying it didn't wasn't something I felt some need to answer. I just didn't know why you were saying it. The canopy vapor was originally much fuller, that's all. Again you are upbraiding me based on some assumption of your own, though what I've said is completely consistent, and NOT miraculous.
I refer to "other creationists" to answer this insistence here on imputing my view of the Bible to me as if I didn't share it with others.
I'm not interested in how many other people believe as you do,
And I'm not interested in what you're interested in if you can't get what I say in its proper context. I'm not only talking to you in this thread you know, I've been answering a lot of people.
...because the question is not about doctrine but about the text. I've asked you on several occasions to tie your interpretation of things to the Bible. You've responded with things like, please let me believe what I wanted to believe, and accused me of accepting only a single interpretation, or cited other Creationists, or told me that it is useless to pursue details. In short, you've stayed as far away from citing the Bible in answering the question as is possible.
You seem to have been having some conversation of your own with some other person you call "Faith" but who isn't me because I have no idea what you are talking about. My memory of this thread is that I've many times referred to the fountains of the deep and the waters of the firmament, BOTH BIBLICAL REFERENCES, as the source of the Flood waters. You are possibly misreading things I've been saying to others since I don't even recall having all that much of a conversation with you personally up until this point. In any case I don't recognize your version of the conversation at all.
At this point I don't expect you to do any better.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by NoNukes, posted 06-22-2014 9:21 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by NoNukes, posted 06-23-2014 8:13 AM Faith has replied
 Message 161 by herebedragons, posted 06-23-2014 9:23 AM Faith has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 145 of 276 (730001)
06-22-2014 9:50 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by Faith
06-22-2014 6:08 PM


Re: why not miracle
What we're interested in is the facts you can bring to bear to support your conclusions.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by Faith, posted 06-22-2014 6:08 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by Faith, posted 06-22-2014 9:52 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 146 of 276 (730002)
06-22-2014 9:52 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by Percy
06-22-2014 9:50 PM


Re: why not miracle
I believe I've provided all the facts necessary to support whatever I've said.
Edited by Faith, : Remove first half of sentence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by Percy, posted 06-22-2014 9:50 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by hooah212002, posted 06-22-2014 10:34 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 147 of 276 (730003)
06-22-2014 10:04 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by Dr Adequate
06-22-2014 9:43 PM


Re: why not miracle
Might as well concentrate on making a perfectly circular green ring around Las Vegas and not bother with turning the whole desert green. I'll let you know when I have the hundreds lined up for the project.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-22-2014 9:43 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 148 of 276 (730004)
06-22-2014 10:04 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by Dr Adequate
06-22-2014 9:43 PM


Re: why not miracle
Dr Adequate writes:
Because natural meteorological phenomena aren't good at geometry.
I thought it was a perfect circle either way, with the two scenarios being inside the circle becomes green versus outside the circle becomes green.
If an exception is made for Nevada's own little Nineveh, this looks more like it's intentional.
Another point of view could be that if prayer could work miracles in sin city, that would appear even more intentional.
I don't actually have opinions on this either way. I'm just trying to make clear why Faith might be confused about what you're saying.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-22-2014 9:43 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by Faith, posted 06-22-2014 10:05 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 149 of 276 (730005)
06-22-2014 10:05 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by Percy
06-22-2014 10:04 PM


Re: why not miracle
Yes his post was confusing, thanks for trying to sort it out. I get now what he meant but he still hasn't seen that his first answer didn't convey that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by Percy, posted 06-22-2014 10:04 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 150 of 276 (730006)
06-22-2014 10:34 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by Faith
06-22-2014 9:52 PM


Re: why not miracle
I know I said I was done, but this is an easy one.
Can you list the facts you have provided in a nice, easy to digest, free from interpretation, no need for your faith or belief, list that anyone can test?
Making a list with this forum software is easy. Just do:
[ list] insert list matter here [ /list] (sans the space I put after the first left bracket each time)

Organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation, an accident. Your lives are measured in years and decades. You wither and die. We are eternal, the pinnacle of evolution and existence. Before us, you are nothing. Your extinction is inevitable. We are the end of everything.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by Faith, posted 06-22-2014 9:52 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by Faith, posted 06-22-2014 10:38 PM hooah212002 has replied

  
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