Some water measurements for the Flood

Progress of sorts. So at least part of the flood story was miraculous. I see no reason why the rest couldn't be.You're trying to make the case that because rain is natural it follows that the flood was natural. You're failing at that level because the sort of things that would have to happen with the water is impossible, but that aside, you are omitting causation.God caused the flood to happen, he said as much, he predicted it and made it happen. That alone makes it a miracle - he manipulated the climate, the weather and seismic activity, what else could it be other than miraculous intervention?

Or we could find just one Christian with "faith as a grain of mustard seed".

No, that is not the case I am making. The case I am making is that the scripture does not present the mechanics of the Flood as miraculous.

That would work too.

Evangelicals believe the flood was a miracle. This is from the definition of miracle in Baker's Evangelical Dictionary. Baker's uses the same definition of miracle you do but understands the world-wide flood described in the Bible couldn't have been natural. Baker's not only calls the flood a miracle, it calls it a "major miracle": Answers in Genesis also believes the flood a miracle. This is from Did Miracles Really Happen?: --Percy

Interesting. I don't see any reason to try to explain the mechanisms of the Flood naturalistically if it was a miracle, and yet the creationist ministries do of course make that attempt. ABE: There's no point in trying to explain the turning of water into wine naturalistically, or the feeding of thousands from a few pieces of bread and fish, or the parting of the Red Sea or bringing a dead person back to life and so on. /ABE Nonsense. Throughout scripture there are true miracles that are violations of natural law and they are ALWAYS used to prove that God is God; that was the purpose of Jesus' miracles too -- to demonstrate His being the Messiah, which means His Deity. Mere unusual natural occurrences have no such purpose.That article is unfortunate, but I'm not going to try to find official arguments against it right now. I think the writer just can't cope with the extraordinariness of the Flood so he has to turn it into a miracle. If a miracle isn't a suspension of natural law, which has always been my understanding of it, but only a special intensification of natural processes, that's just boring. There are many who disagree with him about that and AIG should take that article down.It just confuses things to include unusual events that don't violate natural law with the true miracles that do. The article claims the parting of the Red Sea was just an extreme expression of natural processes but that's just plain nuts. No natural wind is going to do such a thing and if it did the Israelites couldn't have walked across the sea. There is no natural way the water would part and make a dry path through it, that was a true miracle, a violation of natural law.There may be no known mechanisms that explain the Flood NOW, but there is simply nothing in the description of it in scripture that makes it anything but an extremely unusual event, not a miracle.But as I've also said, I'm not going to argue with those here who see it as a miracle, there's room for disagreement, I just see nothing in the Bible that defines it as a miracle myself.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

So when you were claiming it was a Natural Process you were wrong?Can you explain the model, mechanism and process for that "spiritual mechanism" and how to differentiate between a "spiritual mechanism" and a miracle?

You are referring to a post that was not about the Flood but about the Fall.ABE: And there were no Biblical "Floods" in the plural, there was ONE Biblical Flood that destroyed the entire planet. I don't know where you get your nonsense but that's just one of your ways of turning the Bible into gobbledygook which can only confuse people who know nothing about it.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

But that is not what the Bible says. There are two mutually exclusive stories smushed together. Have you actually read the Bible Faith? But there is no story about any Fall in the Bible and even if there was, can you explain the model, mechanism and process for that "spiritual mechanism" and how to differentiate between a "spiritual mechanism" and a miracle?

Yes, and your case is readily seen as weak to non-existent.What part of the scripture presents the aggregating of the animal as miraculous? Did you not just agree that such was miraculous without checking to see how it was presented in the text.

Thing is, that bit of the Mojave Desert was hot and dry when no-one was living there. It was hot and dry when it was inhabited by God-fearing ranchers. It was hot and dry when it was run by the Mafia. It's hot and dry now. And then, of course, the whole of the Mojave Desert is hot and dry. It's hot and dry where there's gambling; it's hot and dry in the bits still occupied by God-fearing ranchers; and it's hot and dry in the bits occupied exclusively by desert tortoises. It's a desert. The weather varies neither temporally nor geographically according to how sinful people are. This leads one to think that other factors may be involved.

A simple request: can you explain how the water cycle works?

Sinners give off evil, which rises into the atmosphere and condenses as water, causing it to rain, unless they want it to rain, in which case it condenses as a hygroscopic substance which sucks all the water out of the atmosphere, preventing it from raining.

Ah ye of little faith. A few hundred devoted prayer warriors could turn the Mojave into a lush green paradise.

What Dr. A said. Water gives off vapor which rises into the atmosphere where it forms clouds which may or may not release the water they contain, depending on this that or the other. I've watched many a fat cloud pass overhead refusing to drop any rain on my area (High Desert) when we are parched. They drop a lot of it on the other side of the Sierra where they already have enough, and then just blithely float overhead ignoring us completely. I suppose if we weren't such sinners and prayed more the clouds might favor us more. I mean, after all, they DO dump rain on us once in a while, why not more often? One thing about our clouds though is that they can be spectacularly beautiful, every shade of white through lavender gray through deep purple sometimes.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.