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Author Topic:   ANOTHER Political Quiz
ringo
Member (Idle past 498 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 91 of 102 (727758)
05-20-2014 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by Dogmafood
05-19-2014 9:20 AM


Re: Referendum DD at End of Term/s
ProtoTypical writes:
How many here think that they themselves should not be allowed to vote?
The question isn't about being "allowed" to vote; it's about what we're allowed (or required) to vote for.
Should we be allowed to vote on the weather? I'm going to propose a referendum on having winter every second year.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Dogmafood, posted 05-19-2014 9:20 AM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by xongsmith, posted 05-20-2014 2:50 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied
 Message 94 by Tanypteryx, posted 05-20-2014 3:40 PM ringo has replied
 Message 96 by Dogmafood, posted 05-20-2014 6:06 PM ringo has replied

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2603
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 4.6


(1)
Message 92 of 102 (727779)
05-20-2014 2:50 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by ringo
05-20-2014 1:13 PM


Re: Referendum DD at End of Term/s
...and you'll be right behind me in line for a referendum to make Pi = 3.00000.

- xongsmith, 5.7d

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by ringo, posted 05-20-2014 1:13 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by Larni, posted 05-20-2014 3:29 PM xongsmith has seen this message but not replied

  
Larni
Member
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 93 of 102 (727790)
05-20-2014 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by xongsmith
05-20-2014 2:50 PM


Re: Referendum DD at End of Term/s
...and you'll be right behind me in line for a referendum to make Pi = 3.00000
I've always wonder why creos are not interested in teaching this 'controversy'?

The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer.
-Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53
The explain to them any scientific investigation that explains the existence of things qualifies as science and as an explanation
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 286
Does a query (thats a question Stile) that uses this physical reality, to look for an answer to its existence and properties become theoretical, considering its deductive conclusions are based against objective verifiable realities.
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 134

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Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4504
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 94 of 102 (727791)
05-20-2014 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by ringo
05-20-2014 1:13 PM


Re: Referendum DD at End of Term/s
So now you're anti-skiing? Have you no shame?

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by ringo, posted 05-20-2014 1:13 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by ringo, posted 05-21-2014 11:39 AM Tanypteryx has seen this message but not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4504
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 4.5


(1)
Message 95 of 102 (727792)
05-20-2014 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by Larni
05-20-2014 3:29 PM


Re: Referendum DD at End of Term/s
...and you'll be right behind me in line for a referendum to make Pi = 3.00000
I've always wonder why creos are not interested in teaching this 'controversy'?
They would think the controversy is about whether cherry or apple is best.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Larni, posted 05-20-2014 3:29 PM Larni has not replied

  
Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 434 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 96 of 102 (727819)
05-20-2014 6:06 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by ringo
05-20-2014 1:13 PM


Theory of democracy
The question isn't about being "allowed" to vote; it's about what we're allowed (or required) to vote for.
Same difference. My question was; when there is a vote why shouldn't the people affected be allowed to participate? Representative democracy is neither representative nor democratic.
When I read the Wiki definition it says "Democracy is a form of government in which all eligible citizens participate equally..." That is what I think of when I think democracy. Of course nothing like that exists in the world today.
What I am trying to flesh out is why we are willing to kill and die for a concept that we do not actually believe in and are in fact afraid of. I am really curious about the basis of that fear.
Should we be allowed to vote on the weather?
The next time there is a vote on the weather we should all be allowed to participate. What about the climate? Should we be allowed to vote on that or should we rely on our reps who are dining with the oil company lobbyists?
Edited by ProtoTypical, : title

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by ringo, posted 05-20-2014 1:13 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by ringo, posted 05-21-2014 11:50 AM Dogmafood has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 498 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 97 of 102 (727873)
05-21-2014 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by Tanypteryx
05-20-2014 3:40 PM


Re: Referendum DD at End of Term/s
Tanypteryx writes:
So now you're anti-skiing? Have you no shame?
I'm not against you skiing. I just don't want to have to do it every time I leave the house.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Tanypteryx, posted 05-20-2014 3:40 PM Tanypteryx has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 498 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 98 of 102 (727874)
05-21-2014 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by Dogmafood
05-20-2014 6:06 PM


Re: Theory of democracy
ProtoTypical writes:
My question was; when there is a vote why shouldn't the people affected be allowed to participate?
And the answer, many posts back, was that most people don't want to participate in every niggling detail - just like most people don't want to change their own oil. You are. in fact, allowed to participate if you so choose by lobbying your representative on every detail. With direct democracy, only those who choose to participate in the details get a say; those who are less detail-oriented are effectively disenfranchised.
ProtoTypical writes:
When I read the Wiki definition it says "Democracy is a form of government in which all eligible citizens participate equally..."
That's a good example of how worthless argument by definition is.
ProtoTypical writes:
What I am trying to flesh out is why we are willing to kill and die for a concept that we do not actually believe in and are in fact afraid of. I am really curious about the basis of that fear.
You'll have to be more specific. I am personally not "willing" to either kill or die for anything.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by Dogmafood, posted 05-20-2014 6:06 PM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by Dogmafood, posted 05-22-2014 3:59 PM ringo has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 99 of 102 (727876)
05-21-2014 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by Dogmafood
05-19-2014 9:20 AM


Re: Referendum DD at End of Term/s
How many here think that they themselves should not be allowed to vote? While Omnivoruous is terrified of DD I am sure that he doesn't think that we should be terrified of him voting.
That's a gross misrepresentation of the objections to your proposal.
There are advantages to operating a sizable country or state as a democratic republic rather than as a direct democracy. One of the advantages is that I don't have to be an expert on every conceivable thing on earth, and that I can spend most of my time doing the things I am particularly good at, which does not include deciding on a zoning issue on some street in this town that I never visit or whether a stop light ought to be installed on a street I'm not likely to visit.
In fact there are some problems for which I value the opinions of the experts far more than I value the opinion of the mob. I don't trust most people's ability to make themselves experts. I am a little more trusting of their ability to recognize someone else's expertise when they see it.
No, I don't want to have people in Tennessee vote on whether they can hog all the water from the Chattahoochee river before it flows into Georgia. I want some smart people representing each state to sit down and work out a plan. I don't want to have to quit my day job to weigh in on things.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Dogmafood, posted 05-19-2014 9:20 AM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by Dogmafood, posted 05-22-2014 4:02 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 434 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 100 of 102 (728039)
05-22-2014 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by ringo
05-21-2014 11:50 AM


Re: Theory of democracy
ringo writes:
PT writes:
when there is a vote why shouldn't the people affected be allowed to participate?
And the answer, many posts back, was that most people don't want to participate in every niggling detail
That is a red herring. There is no need to participate any more than you want to. Most people don't want to vote at all. Would you take that fact as a justification for prohibiting everyone from voting?
That's a good example of how worthless argument by definition is.
What? That makes no sense.
I am personally not "willing" to either kill or die for anything.
So that makes you a communist/fascist/pacifist now eh?
Labels aside you can rest assured that your representatives are certainly willing to kill on your behalf and if you weren't such an old fart they wouldn't hesitate to send you up to the front lines.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by ringo, posted 05-21-2014 11:50 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by ringo, posted 05-23-2014 11:47 AM Dogmafood has not replied

  
Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 434 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 101 of 102 (728040)
05-22-2014 4:02 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by NoNukes
05-21-2014 12:05 PM


Re: Referendum DD at End of Term/s
That's a gross misrepresentation of the objections to your proposal.
Hmmm. And then you go on to tell us how you don't want the people of Tennessee making some retarded decision.
One of the advantages is that I don't have to be an expert on every conceivable thing on earth,
I don't see why this should change although I can see a potential increase in knowledge as people engage the issues. Especially when you start preparing them from childhood for their civic duties.
Why do you assume that we would not be able or willing to consult the experts? Also, I see it as a voluntary thing so if you don't want to vote or feel unqualified to have an opinion then you don't vote.
I am a little more trusting of their ability to recognize someone else's expertise when they see it.
I agree.
and that I can spend most of my time doing the things I am particularly good at, which does not include deciding on a zoning issue on some street in this town that I never visit or whether a stop light ought to be installed on a street I'm not likely to visit.
So then don't vote on those issues. If it is a municipal issue outside of your municipality then you wouldn't have a vote anyway. The advantage is that if the issue did concern you then you would have a say that was actually counted.
I want some smart people representing each state to sit down and work out a plan. I don't want to have to quit my day job to weigh in on things.
Why should you have to quit your day job to cast a vote on something so obvious as taking all the water before it gets to Georgia? So the vote is "Should we take all the water from the Gitchagoomee river before them Georgians get it?" Your answer is no. How long did that take? Eleven seconds?
Again, set aside the question of 'how' we could do it and consider the question 'if' we should even try. In theory, in a society where all citizens are equal, shouldn't everyone have an equal say regarding issues that affect them?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by NoNukes, posted 05-21-2014 12:05 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 498 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 102 of 102 (728069)
05-23-2014 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by Dogmafood
05-22-2014 3:59 PM


Re: Theory of democracy
ProtoTypical writes:
Most people don't want to vote at all. Would you take that fact as a justification for prohibiting everyone from voting?
Why do you keep talking about "prohibiting"? I'm not saying we should prohibit anything. I'm saying we should allow people to delegate a representtive to do the work for them - the same way they delegate a plumber. I'm saying they shouldn't be forced to do their own plumbing or live with bad plumbing.
ProtoTypical writes:
ringo writes:
I am personally not "willing" to either kill or die for anything.
So that makes you a communist/fascist/pacifist now eh?
Yup.
ProtoTypical writes:
Labels aside you can rest assured that your representatives are certainly willing to kill on your behalf and if you weren't such an old fart they wouldn't hesitate to send you up to the front lines.
I'm a Canadian. My representatives have done no such thing in my lifetime.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by Dogmafood, posted 05-22-2014 3:59 PM Dogmafood has not replied

  
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