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Author Topic:   Homosexuality and Evo, Creo, and ID
Modulous
Member (Idle past 1597 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 526 of 1309 (728027)
05-22-2014 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 525 by Faith
05-22-2014 1:30 PM


Re: God's Other Laws
I'm just not up on the subject of usury.
You should: It is one of the reasons Jews were and are reviled.
The Jews were basically forbidden from entering into almost all business in Europe. But because Christians couldn't loan at interest to one another, they allowed the Jews to loan money to them. With so little free competition Jewish moneylenders could charge high interest rates with (sort of) impunity. This lead to them becoming very wealthy, which upset European Christians so much it was often the driving force for persecutions and expulsions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 525 by Faith, posted 05-22-2014 1:30 PM Faith has not replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 544 days)
Posts: 16112
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 527 of 1309 (728028)
05-22-2014 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 525 by Faith
05-22-2014 1:30 PM


Re: God's Other Laws
I'm just not up on the subject of usury. I like what Luther said though.
Well then, make sure you have a bank account that neither charges nor pays interest.
I'll say it again. Being asked to bake a wedding cake for a gay wedding puts one in the position of approving of gay marriage by complying, and that's asking a Christian to dishonor God's law. That's how a Christian feels it. You don't have to see it our way, there is such a thing as different points of view, which should be supported in a supposedly free society.
You know, I'm not unsympathetic to your point of view. And yet what are we to say about the Christian who believes that God's law requires the segregation of races? Or that he shouldn't serve Jewish customers? He has a point of view too.
Now, you may say that he's not a real Christian. And yet at the very least, the First Amendment says that the law can't distinguish between Christian sects, and decide that some of them are Real Christians and should have their beliefs protected by the law, whereas some of them aren't Real Christians and shouldn't.
I can't see what we can do about this that doesn't either legitimize racism (so long as the racist says that he thinks he's doing God's work) --- which would be bad --- or pick and choose which Christian sects are the right ones --- which would violate the First Amendment.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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dronestar
Member (Idle past 117 days)
Posts: 1396
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


(1)
Message 528 of 1309 (728034)
05-22-2014 3:13 PM
Reply to: Message 525 by Faith
05-22-2014 1:30 PM


I'm just not up on the subject . . .
Faith writes:
I'm just not up on the subject of usury.
Oh god, I'm with you Faith!!!
I mean, goddamn, most of god's messages are sure important all right, but sweet-baby-jesus, who's got the time or energy or devotion to follow EVERY-god-damn thing he says. Holy lord Faith, . . . ever read the psalms, they are SOOO depressing.
Or how about those god-damn ten commandments. TEN!??? Holy Mary, Joseph, and god, . . . who does god think I am, . . . an accountant?! God in heaven, . . . I'm just not up on the subject of ALL of those. I say the first three commandments (particularly the third one) are more than god-damn enough for a true christian to follow.
Let's stick together Faith, you and me are exactly alike.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 525 by Faith, posted 05-22-2014 1:30 PM Faith has not replied

frako
Member (Idle past 85 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 529 of 1309 (728035)
05-22-2014 3:13 PM
Reply to: Message 525 by Faith
05-22-2014 1:30 PM


Re: God's Other Laws
I'm just not up on the subject of usury. I like what Luther said though.
I'll say it again. Being asked to bake a wedding cake for a gay wedding puts one in the position of approving of gay marriage by complying, and that's asking a Christian to dishonor God's law. That's how a Christian feels it. You don't have to see it our way, there is such a thing as different points of view, which should be supported in a supposedly free society.
Well if you feel that strongly about it you can stop baking cakes, the same way you will be hard to find a Muslim butcher in a butchery that deals with pork.
You baking cakes is a choice them marring out of love has no other choice but same sex marriage.

Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand
What are the Christians gonna do to me ..... Forgive me, good luck with that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 525 by Faith, posted 05-22-2014 1:30 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Modulous
Member (Idle past 1597 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 530 of 1309 (728044)
05-22-2014 6:13 PM
Reply to: Message 527 by Dr Adequate
05-22-2014 1:55 PM


Re: God's Other Laws
Well then, make sure you have a bank account that neither charges nor pays interest.
Indeed, Faith might be interested in Islamic banking - those guys have banking without usury down to a fine art.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 527 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-22-2014 1:55 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 531 of 1309 (728045)
05-22-2014 6:50 PM
Reply to: Message 520 by Tanypteryx
05-22-2014 11:57 AM


Re: evidence
I think it is extraordinary that the framers of our constitution and Bill of Rights could produce a document that continues to address new issues of equal rights for everyone.
Actually the framers and the authors of the Bill of Rights did not do that. Most of the parts of the constitution that extend equal rights to everyone were installed after the civil war. Women received the right to vote well after black men received that constitutional right.
And even the 14th Amendment was interpreted in a crabbed, rights denying fashion up until the mid 1900s.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 520 by Tanypteryx, posted 05-22-2014 11:57 AM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 532 by Tanypteryx, posted 05-22-2014 10:36 PM NoNukes has replied

Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 3768
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 532 of 1309 (728048)
05-22-2014 10:36 PM
Reply to: Message 531 by NoNukes
05-22-2014 6:50 PM


Re: evidence
Thanks for the clarification.
They did create an instrument that could be modified without destroying the nation. And they amended it with the beginning ideas of rights for the people. They were stuck in their times and didn't include everyone.
I still can't believe that the Equal Rights Amendment from years ago failed.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


(3)
Message 533 of 1309 (728050)
05-22-2014 10:51 PM
Reply to: Message 489 by Faith
05-21-2014 6:18 PM


Re: evidence
Pseudochristian Democrat southerners wanted it to become the law of the land, so we had a Civil War to decide the issue and they, fortunately, lost.
Is that what you think happened? What school system taught that nonsense?
Slavery was the law of the land up until nearly the end of the civil war. It was completely legal and existed not just in the Southern states, but also in Delaware. Slavery had existed even in Pennsylvania and New York prior to 1800. Benjamin Franklin and John Hancock both bought and sold slaves. At the time of the civil war there was a slave market operating in DC right near the seat of the federal government. At the time of the civil war the Supreme Court had validated the right to own slaves and the inability of the federal government to do anything about.
Slavery was enshrined in the constitution by the founding fathers, and given a protection period during which it was unconstitutional to even attempt to dismantle the institution. That provision while defunct, is still part of the constitution today.
Is there any subject on which you won't make a complete buffoon of yourself?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 489 by Faith, posted 05-21-2014 6:18 PM Faith has not replied

NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 534 of 1309 (728051)
05-22-2014 11:17 PM
Reply to: Message 532 by Tanypteryx
05-22-2014 10:36 PM


Re: evidence
I still can't believe that the Equal Rights Amendment from years ago failed.
What's amazing to me is that such an amendment would even be needed. A literal reading of the 14th amendment would easily addressed everything that would be covered in the ERA.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 532 by Tanypteryx, posted 05-22-2014 10:36 PM Tanypteryx has seen this message but not replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 17072
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 535 of 1309 (728054)
05-23-2014 12:43 AM
Reply to: Message 529 by frako
05-22-2014 3:13 PM


Re: God's Other Laws
This is where people get it wrong. Attraction is not a choice. Love is not a choice. Physical actions and sex are a choice.
Just because you love the guy doesnt mean you need to marry him. Thats a cultural expectation.
Im not against the legal right to do so, however. Im just pointing out that there is no need for marriage. Love involves responsibility more than it does "rights."

When I use a word, Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, it means just what I choose it to meannothing more nor less.

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NoNukes
Inactive Member


(4)
Message 536 of 1309 (728055)
05-23-2014 2:18 AM
Reply to: Message 535 by Phat
05-23-2014 12:43 AM


Re: God's Other Laws
Im not against the legal right to do so, however. Im just pointing out that there is no need for marriage. Love involves responsibility more than it does "rights."
What you say is simply not true. Not having rights means not being legal enabled to take care of some of those love responsibilities. I won't have any problems taking care of my wife's estate when if she passes before I do, or making sure her wishes are respected at the hospital if something dire happens. She can do the same for me. But gay people cannot do that for their loved ones because their relationship is not respected by the state. The law in my state is that there can be no legal recognition of a gay married couples relationship as a civil union, marriage or anything resembling marriage.
That the state would set up that kind of cruel and inhumane situation is something I find irrational and unfathomable. Yet that's what the people of this state voted in large numbers to enshrine in the state constitution.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 535 by Phat, posted 05-23-2014 12:43 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

vimesey
Member
Posts: 1382
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 537 of 1309 (728059)
05-23-2014 6:07 AM
Reply to: Message 510 by Faith
05-22-2014 6:16 AM


Re: evidence
Hi Faith - I understand that you see conscientious disobedience and punishment as your bottom line. But I am interested in how you analyze conflicting rights.
Do you agree that society often has to balance conflicting rights ? And do you also agree that your right to your religious beliefs does not always trump other people's rights ?

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 510 by Faith, posted 05-22-2014 6:16 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 8111
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


(5)
Message 538 of 1309 (728061)
05-23-2014 8:19 AM
Reply to: Message 535 by Phat
05-23-2014 12:43 AM


Re: God's Other Laws
Physical actions and sex are a choice.
I am constantly amazed with the anti-gayrighters obsession with gay sex. It is almost pathological.
Do you understand anything about psychology and the human need for human contact? The sex act and loving physical relationships are very important for peoples mental health. To declare people cannot participate in a healthy sexual life is vile.
Just because you belong to a sect that wants to mandate other peoples sex acts does not make it ok.
Edited by Theodoric, : No reason given.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
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dronestar
Member (Idle past 117 days)
Posts: 1396
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


Message 539 of 1309 (728065)
05-23-2014 10:24 AM
Reply to: Message 535 by Phat
05-23-2014 12:43 AM


Re: God's Other Laws
Theo writes:
I am constantly amazed with the anti-gayrighters obsession with gay sex. It is almost pathological.
Hey Phat,
Do you agree with Theo, that with all the REAL dangers and concerns in the world, that you are dissproportionately concerned with gay sex?
[armchair psychiatrist alert > ON]
Although I am probably 100% wrong, I sometimes wonder if you are, like the bible's Paul, a self-hating homosexual. I would be sad if that is the case and you torture yourself so needlessly. Life is short, see a good therapist, throw off the bonds of religion, and love life.
Just my opinion, and I apologize a millions times if I am wrong, but on the odd chance I am even partly right, I really would want you to be happy in life. Life is tough enough, why make it worse with religion?

This message is a reply to:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 937 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 540 of 1309 (728066)
05-23-2014 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 537 by vimesey
05-23-2014 6:07 AM


conflicting rights you've got to be kidding
Hi Faith - I understand that you see conscientious disobedience and punishment as your bottom line. But I am interested in how you analyze conflicting rights.
The idea that a sin should have any rights whatever in conflict with the God who made us all is so disgustingly ludicrous there is nothing to "analyze." This is a bogus and downright evil claim of rights for a group of sinners that should never have even been thought up.
Do you agree that society often has to balance conflicting rights ? And do you also agree that your right to your religious beliefs does not always trump other people's rights ?
Sure looks like that's the case now, doesn't it? Christianity has been thrown out of society and is rapidly losing rights, all in keeping with the lovely sentiments at EvC too. Again you are discussing something that is an absolute abomination as if it were a rational conflict of rights in a rational society. What can I say? "Society" is writing Christians out of our time-honored rights in what used to be a Christian society, and what that means is that Christians are going to be punished more and more as we are going to disobey this outrageous travesty.
In keeping with all this outrageously evil stupidity, a Satanist society in New York is trying to get a statue of Satan erected on government grounds in Oklahoma, and just tried to have a Satanic black mass on the Harvard campus. That's where society has gone. Now out and out Satanism is claiming its "rights" too. Probably doesn't bother any of you one bit. So far Oklahoma has resisted and the black mass was shouted down at Harvard but give it time. Soon I expect to hear you all, hey maybe today, saying well but all religions should have equal rights in "society" and why shouldn't that include Satanists? Hey, the statue is going to have children there too, Satan's really a nice god of love and stuff. Does anybody even know that Harvard's original motto was "Truth for Christ and the Church?"
So Christians who have the guts to stand for truth (how many will that be I wonder?) are going to be punished as soon as the flood of evil has the upper hand. I hope we'll go down singing hymns under the axe wielded by this evil society.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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