Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,806 Year: 3,063/9,624 Month: 908/1,588 Week: 91/223 Day: 2/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Homosexuality and Evo, Creo, and ID
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 497 of 1309 (727926)
05-21-2014 7:03 PM
Reply to: Message 496 by Modulous
05-21-2014 6:47 PM


Re: evidence
Sigh. I'm for protecting people who can't help what they are, and that includes homosexuals. I was trying to distinguish between a natural condition and a behavior, but really that misses the point too, because the ONLY thing at issue here is being asked to do something that violates God's law.
And the only thing that fits that situation is being asked to make a cake or take pictures for a gay wedding. Perhaps you can come up with a situation I'm not thinking of where I'd be put in the same position but so far this is the only one that fits that condition. This is the ONLY thing I've been talking about, the ONLY thing that the Christians are accused of "discriminating" about. This is not about serving homosexuals or anybody else under any other circumstances, just this one, as I've said over and over and over again.
I detoured to consider what makes the situation different from racism because this is stupidly and irrelevantly hurled at the Christians for refusing to support gay marriage, as if all you all want to do is pin something on us, anything. And I think that is what some of you do want to do, you really aren't interested in the context at all. Homosexuality IS sin, but we are NOT discriminating against sinners either, the whole accusation is trumped up.
Again, the ONLY situation here is being asked to do something that validates gay marriage which is asking us to dishonor God's law.
I could not care less what the courts say about any of this if it forces a Christian to do anything that dishonors God's law.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 496 by Modulous, posted 05-21-2014 6:47 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 498 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-21-2014 7:22 PM Faith has replied
 Message 500 by Modulous, posted 05-21-2014 7:42 PM Faith has replied
 Message 506 by vimesey, posted 05-22-2014 3:40 AM Faith has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 501 of 1309 (727937)
05-21-2014 7:42 PM
Reply to: Message 498 by Dr Adequate
05-21-2014 7:22 PM


Re: God's Other Laws
Jesus fulfilled all those laws so that Christians are not under them. I don't know why you all keep harping on them, they are irrelevant. Jesus fulfilled ALL the laws, so that our salvation is a free gift and His obedience covers all who believe in Him.
And those laws have nothing to do with the Moral Law anyway, which is where the conflict enters. Those are all what are called "ceremonial" laws, all types, meant only for the Jews, and rescinded in the New Testament. Jesus IS our Sabbath, we no longer have the law against picking up sticks. Shrimp was a food meant to separate the Jews from the Gentiles. God rescinded that law in the NT.
However, I could be put in a position where I had to refuse to honor a second marriage, because I believe Jesus disallows that, so you hit on one instance that is comparable to the gay marriage instance.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 498 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-21-2014 7:22 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 503 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-21-2014 11:12 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 504 by Straggler, posted 05-22-2014 12:40 AM Faith has replied
 Message 517 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-22-2014 10:06 AM Faith has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 507 of 1309 (727957)
05-22-2014 6:06 AM
Reply to: Message 500 by Modulous
05-21-2014 7:42 PM


Re: evidence
But nobody is being asked to do something that violates God's law. Even if we assume that selling a cake to be used in a same-sex marriage is violating God's law, nobody is being asked to do that. It is certainly something you are free to do - but you are not obligated to. In fact there are hundreds of millions of Americans that have never and will never bake and sell a wedding cake for a same-sex marriage ceremony.
Funny then that these bakers, and a photographer and a florist WERE asked to do something that violates God's law and when they refused they were subjected to a lawsuit and the courts sided with their accusers. Your point is evasive and irrelevant to the context.
This is the ONLY thing I've been talking about, the ONLY thing that the Christians are accused of "discriminating" about.
A few Christians. Not close to the majority.
I don't count those who reject God's law.
I consider this discussion to be about a principle, numbers at this stage are irrelevant. The principle is that a Christian CAN be sued for standing on Christian beliefs. I consider this to be an evil unjust legal situation, and I see no reason why it would stop at this first step. The culture has decided that Christians must act against our belief concerning gay marriage when put in the position of having to choose, and if we refuse we are subject to sanctions. This is unprecedented in American history, and it's just the toe in the door.
Again, the ONLY situation here is being asked to do something that validates gay marriage which is asking us to dishonor God's law.
But you don't have to do it!
And in the context under discussion when I don't I get sued and fined. Why do you keep pretending this isn't the context?
I could not care less what the courts say about any of this if it forces a Christian to do anything that dishonors God's law.
If you don't care what the courts say, why you are you bothering to discuss a law and the legal consequences to Christians?
You presented the views of Scalia as if I should take them as a reason to give up my views. I don't.
You know that there is no law in America that forces you to dishonour your version of God's law? Not a single one.
Why do you keep twisting the context? If a business can be sued and fined for refusing to do a service that in their view dishonors God's law then there is definitely a law that forces this on us.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 500 by Modulous, posted 05-21-2014 7:42 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 520 by Tanypteryx, posted 05-22-2014 11:57 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 524 by Modulous, posted 05-22-2014 1:28 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 549 by Modulous, posted 05-23-2014 2:11 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 586 by Modulous, posted 05-24-2014 8:26 PM Faith has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 508 of 1309 (727958)
05-22-2014 6:08 AM
Reply to: Message 505 by zoetherat
05-22-2014 1:41 AM


Re: evidence
you admitted that you don't actually consider that woman a Christian.
I did not. Go back and quote what I actually said.
ABE: Hint: I refused to judge, and in fact I can't judge in individual cases. Even if the "church" is apostate, individuals may be Christians.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 505 by zoetherat, posted 05-22-2014 1:41 AM zoetherat has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 509 of 1309 (727959)
05-22-2014 6:11 AM
Reply to: Message 504 by Straggler
05-22-2014 12:40 AM


Re: God's Other Laws
So - Just to be clear - Christian cake makers should refuse to make cakes for both second marriages and same-sex marriages. Because both violate "God's law". Is that correct?
Remarriage after divorce. Some second marriages are because the first spouse died.
Yes.
I personally would be put in this position with regard to remarriage, but I'm not representative. I believe that all Christians should have this same view of course.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 504 by Straggler, posted 05-22-2014 12:40 AM Straggler has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 510 of 1309 (727960)
05-22-2014 6:16 AM
Reply to: Message 506 by vimesey
05-22-2014 3:40 AM


Re: evidence
I don't see that you've said anything I haven't already answered a hundred times in this thread.
Go ahead and decide what the "balance" is in your opinion. If it requires me to bake a cake for a gay wedding, I'll choose whatever punishment you decree.
That's the bottom line and has been throughout this thread.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 506 by vimesey, posted 05-22-2014 3:40 AM vimesey has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 513 by Heathen, posted 05-22-2014 7:16 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 537 by vimesey, posted 05-23-2014 6:07 AM Faith has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 511 of 1309 (727961)
05-22-2014 6:23 AM
Reply to: Message 505 by zoetherat
05-22-2014 1:41 AM


Re: evidence
Hard to see a Christian defending slavery, that's why I called them pseudoChristians, but perhaps they were simply misquided Christians. Also to emphasize that it was Christians who opposed slavery because it's always Christians who are accused of defending it when that is not the case.
And you twisted the whole intent of what I said about Christians who are persecuted. Why not be inclusive in such a case?
The RCC is not a Christian institution. I've argued this many times here as a separate issue. Your logic chopping is just gameplaying.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 505 by zoetherat, posted 05-22-2014 1:41 AM zoetherat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 514 by Larni, posted 05-22-2014 8:07 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 515 by NoNukes, posted 05-22-2014 8:58 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 516 by Diomedes, posted 05-22-2014 9:56 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 521 by zoetherat, posted 05-22-2014 12:12 PM Faith has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 525 of 1309 (728022)
05-22-2014 1:30 PM
Reply to: Message 517 by Dr Adequate
05-22-2014 10:06 AM


Re: God's Other Laws
I'm just not up on the subject of usury. I like what Luther said though.
I'll say it again. Being asked to bake a wedding cake for a gay wedding puts one in the position of approving of gay marriage by complying, and that's asking a Christian to dishonor God's law. That's how a Christian feels it. You don't have to see it our way, there is such a thing as different points of view, which should be supported in a supposedly free society.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 517 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-22-2014 10:06 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 526 by Modulous, posted 05-22-2014 1:52 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 527 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-22-2014 1:55 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 528 by dronestar, posted 05-22-2014 3:13 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 529 by frako, posted 05-22-2014 3:13 PM Faith has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 540 of 1309 (728066)
05-23-2014 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 537 by vimesey
05-23-2014 6:07 AM


conflicting rights you've got to be kidding
Hi Faith - I understand that you see conscientious disobedience and punishment as your bottom line. But I am interested in how you analyze conflicting rights.
The idea that a sin should have any rights whatever in conflict with the God who made us all is so disgustingly ludicrous there is nothing to "analyze." This is a bogus and downright evil claim of rights for a group of sinners that should never have even been thought up.
Do you agree that society often has to balance conflicting rights ? And do you also agree that your right to your religious beliefs does not always trump other people's rights ?
Sure looks like that's the case now, doesn't it? Christianity has been thrown out of society and is rapidly losing rights, all in keeping with the lovely sentiments at EvC too. Again you are discussing something that is an absolute abomination as if it were a rational conflict of rights in a rational society. What can I say? "Society" is writing Christians out of our time-honored rights in what used to be a Christian society, and what that means is that Christians are going to be punished more and more as we are going to disobey this outrageous travesty.
In keeping with all this outrageously evil stupidity, a Satanist society in New York is trying to get a statue of Satan erected on government grounds in Oklahoma, and just tried to have a Satanic black mass on the Harvard campus. That's where society has gone. Now out and out Satanism is claiming its "rights" too. Probably doesn't bother any of you one bit. So far Oklahoma has resisted and the black mass was shouted down at Harvard but give it time. Soon I expect to hear you all, hey maybe today, saying well but all religions should have equal rights in "society" and why shouldn't that include Satanists? Hey, the statue is going to have children there too, Satan's really a nice god of love and stuff. Does anybody even know that Harvard's original motto was "Truth for Christ and the Church?"
So Christians who have the guts to stand for truth (how many will that be I wonder?) are going to be punished as soon as the flood of evil has the upper hand. I hope we'll go down singing hymns under the axe wielded by this evil society.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 537 by vimesey, posted 05-23-2014 6:07 AM vimesey has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 541 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-23-2014 11:53 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 542 by Larni, posted 05-23-2014 12:01 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 543 by PaulK, posted 05-23-2014 12:03 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 548 by Modulous, posted 05-23-2014 1:56 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 550 by frako, posted 05-23-2014 3:07 PM Faith has replied
 Message 552 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-23-2014 4:16 PM Faith has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 546 of 1309 (728079)
05-23-2014 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 545 by dronestar
05-23-2014 12:29 PM


Re: conflicting rights you've got to be kidding
You're all as usual making insanely false moral equivalences. But that's how you're going to get Satanism under protection soon too, isn't it? You have no idea what horrors you are playing with.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 545 by dronestar, posted 05-23-2014 12:29 PM dronestar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 547 by dronestar, posted 05-23-2014 1:23 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 551 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-23-2014 4:11 PM Faith has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 553 of 1309 (728091)
05-23-2014 4:53 PM
Reply to: Message 550 by frako
05-23-2014 3:07 PM


Re: conflicting rights you've got to be kidding
Christianity always had "more rights" in Christian countries because it was recognized as the truth and the basis for a good society -- for all citizens, not just Christians; also because Christians had been persecuted and had to have those protections.
If you succeed in throwing it out completely what's going to happen is a degeneration of society to a level even you can't imagine or desire.
What you don't get is that it IS loving people to warn them about the consequences of providing rights for something like gay marriage which is a violation of God's law, consequences to the society but also to the individuals. It's even loving toward the homosexuals too. Would it be loving to let them destroy themselves, end up in Hell because they've been deceived into thinking their lifestyle is OK when it's not? Sin is sin, any kind of sin gets you into Hell, but deceiving yourself that your sin is not a sin is a particularly dangerous situation. Jesus was no wimpy patsy of the sort you all like to picture Him, He loved sinners but He didn't let them stay in their sins, He told them to "repent and believe." And He warned the Pharisees they were headed for Hell too.
I've never killed or persecuted anyone in my life and I don't know any Christians who have.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 550 by frako, posted 05-23-2014 3:07 PM frako has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 556 by frako, posted 05-23-2014 5:07 PM Faith has replied
 Message 560 by PaulK, posted 05-23-2014 5:30 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 593 by Straggler, posted 05-30-2014 7:49 AM Faith has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 554 of 1309 (728093)
05-23-2014 4:54 PM
Reply to: Message 552 by Dr Adequate
05-23-2014 4:16 PM


Re: conflicting rights you've got to be kidding
Oh no doubt you can throw us to something. Read up on the Inquisition. I'm sure you can come up with some really interesting places to throw us, hang us, bury us, suffocate us, whatever.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 552 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-23-2014 4:16 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 557 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-23-2014 5:10 PM Faith has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 555 of 1309 (728094)
05-23-2014 4:55 PM
Reply to: Message 551 by Dr Adequate
05-23-2014 4:11 PM


Re: conflicting rights you've got to be kidding
Funny I just think I'm representing traditional mainline Protestantism, nothing special, just basic Christianity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 551 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-23-2014 4:11 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 558 of 1309 (728099)
05-23-2014 5:12 PM
Reply to: Message 556 by frako
05-23-2014 5:07 PM


Re: conflicting rights you've got to be kidding
Hitler was a Catholic, he had the Pope on his side, and he modeled the Holocaust after the Inquisition.
Like I've been saying, you can make sure we're punished, you have the power now, and you're obviously a good fascist so I expect you to come up with some really good ways to do away with us.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 556 by frako, posted 05-23-2014 5:07 PM frako has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 561 by frako, posted 05-23-2014 5:59 PM Faith has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 559 of 1309 (728100)
05-23-2014 5:14 PM
Reply to: Message 557 by Dr Adequate
05-23-2014 5:10 PM


Re: conflicting rights you've got to be kidding
Yes, death by wombats ought to be interesting.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 557 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-23-2014 5:10 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 562 by Modulous, posted 05-23-2014 6:48 PM Faith has not replied

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024