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Author Topic:   What if Jesus and Satan were real?
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 309 of 591 (726370)
05-08-2014 5:58 PM
Reply to: Message 303 by NoNukes
05-08-2014 12:05 PM


Re: Satan
Pretty arrogant of you, don't you think, to suggest you know what I was thinking.
If you review the message in question you will see that I did not have to guess what you were thinking.
Blue writes:
Yes. I've done it plenty of times with software.
MFFJM2 writes:
Your answer simply means you didn't understand the question. A square is a geometric form just like a circle. They are by definition different, and therefore it is impossible to make a square into a circle and retain being a square. Please tell me more about what you've done in software that refutes basic logic. Can you also make a dog a cat and retain its being a dog.
Are you going to continue to pretend that you were not addressing his answer regarding squaring a circle using software. If you do, expect me to label your behavior using the 'L' word.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 303 by NoNukes, posted 05-08-2014 12:05 PM NoNukes has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 321 by Blue, posted 05-10-2014 11:41 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 364 of 591 (726934)
05-13-2014 10:18 PM
Reply to: Message 362 by Blue
05-13-2014 7:22 PM


Re: Satan
In Job 1, Satan is on earth. This is clearly after judgement in Gen 3 and in Ezekiel 28 13-15, and Isaiah 14:12-14. What we see here is God having Satan (the evil one and an ACTUAL BEING) do God's bidding.
Really? Is that the relationship you see in Job? What I read sounds more like a wager in which Satan goes only as far as God allows.
This is not a Christian vantage per say because the name of SATAN (as a being i.e. son of god)) is used in Jewish scripture.
The question is whether the Jews believed Satan to be a personification rather than an actual being. You cannot determine this by whether or not Satan actually does things in the scripture because a given story may or may not have been interpreted literally.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 362 by Blue, posted 05-13-2014 7:22 PM Blue has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 384 by Blue, posted 05-15-2014 2:16 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 505 of 591 (727411)
05-17-2014 9:47 PM
Reply to: Message 500 by Blue
05-17-2014 8:16 PM


Re: Satan
Free agency has nothing to do with the tree of good/ evil.
So why was it within easy reach of Adam and Eve? What was the point of having the tree there and having only Adam and Eve's obedience to God's command being what kept them from eating of the tree.
In what other way could Adam and Eve have chosen to disobey?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 500 by Blue, posted 05-17-2014 8:16 PM Blue has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 506 by Blue, posted 05-18-2014 1:50 AM NoNukes has not replied
 Message 507 by Blue, posted 05-18-2014 1:51 AM NoNukes has replied
 Message 508 by Blue, posted 05-18-2014 1:58 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 509 of 591 (727417)
05-18-2014 4:10 AM
Reply to: Message 507 by Blue
05-18-2014 1:51 AM


Re: Satan
I'm lead to think evil would not of entered the world.
I don't see how you reach that conclusion. Wasn't the snake evil? Some people even believe the snake was the enemy.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 507 by Blue, posted 05-18-2014 1:51 AM Blue has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 513 by Blue, posted 05-18-2014 11:59 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 510 of 591 (727418)
05-18-2014 4:14 AM
Reply to: Message 508 by Blue
05-18-2014 1:58 AM


Re: Satan
I would argue we would have lived in harmony with God.
And you are saying that God would not want that? Given that God created the universe, that does not leave many great options. One possibility is that God does not think harmony with people who have no choice is all that great. In fact, I don't see much alternative to that.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 508 by Blue, posted 05-18-2014 1:58 AM Blue has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 511 of 591 (727419)
05-18-2014 4:17 AM
Reply to: Message 467 by Blue
05-17-2014 4:23 PM


Re: Satan
Ok so Adam knew. What about eve? What about the other questions?
Eve recited God's words to the snake, so we know she knew. I agree with ringo. You don't seem to have a point.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 467 by Blue, posted 05-17-2014 4:23 PM Blue has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 514 by Blue, posted 05-18-2014 12:07 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 539 of 591 (727519)
05-18-2014 6:03 PM
Reply to: Message 513 by Blue
05-18-2014 11:59 AM


Re: Satan
It wasn't to say the serpent had been subtil prior to the story. So the fall was the fall into evil bringing it into reality.
If you can read that from the text, then for you any reading is possible and there is no real basis for discussion.
The serpent was called the more subtil than any beast. That means that subtil is a quality that all creatures have, but of which the serpent had more. Your interpretation that he became subtil only after the entire story is pretty clearly wrong.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 513 by Blue, posted 05-18-2014 11:59 AM Blue has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 543 of 591 (727523)
05-18-2014 6:21 PM
Reply to: Message 514 by Blue
05-18-2014 12:07 PM


Re: Satan
I think it is reasonable to conclude adam spoke with eve. But it is not in the text that adam said that to eve.
Is that even important? It is absolutely clear that Eve knew regardless of who told her.
Seriously, I watch you make up stuff in your posts that is not said in the text, and the you duck and dodge to avoid the most obvious things.
Also if you read vs 1 it is clear the story is about a DECEPTIVE serpent that is JUDGED separately for its sins.
So when you say that man's actions brought sin into the world, you mean that in some way that does not include the serpent's deception which occurred prior to Eve's and Adam's actions.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 514 by Blue, posted 05-18-2014 12:07 PM Blue has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 545 by Blue, posted 05-18-2014 7:05 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 546 of 591 (727528)
05-18-2014 10:06 PM
Reply to: Message 545 by Blue
05-18-2014 7:05 PM


Re: Satan
IT was important in the conversation with ringo as per her claim. I was showing that in the bible, you can interpret inferences into the story. I am surprised you didn't understand that point.
Yes, and then we watch you absolutely refuse to draw inferences that are pretty much unavoidable. Like the idea that we don't have to be told that the serpent was already up to no good before Adam and Eve sinned.
No. It does include the Serpent's deception. I may not have pointed that out in my post but in my mind I was including the Serpent. The Serpent is absolutely included in the reason for the fall.
Sigh.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 545 by Blue, posted 05-18-2014 7:05 PM Blue has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 551 by Blue, posted 05-19-2014 12:04 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 555 of 591 (727585)
05-19-2014 9:13 AM
Reply to: Message 541 by Modulous
05-18-2014 6:07 PM


Re: Satan
I am incapable of flying to the moon, but I am still to be regarded as free. Why would I not be free if I was incapable of committing murder or rape?
I think this is a trivially easy distinction to make. Living beings are not physically capable of flying to the moon, so accordingly no mental tinkering is necessary to disallow it. On the other hand, there is no physical reason why you have to love your neighbor as yourself, so when you choose to do so, you exhibit free will.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 541 by Modulous, posted 05-18-2014 6:07 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 562 by Larni, posted 05-19-2014 11:29 AM NoNukes has replied
 Message 566 by Blue, posted 05-19-2014 1:01 PM NoNukes has not replied
 Message 575 by Modulous, posted 05-19-2014 3:30 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 557 of 591 (727587)
05-19-2014 9:20 AM
Reply to: Message 551 by Blue
05-19-2014 12:04 AM


Re: Satan
There is nothing in the Bible except verse 1 of the fall pointing to it. Are we agreeing that the Serpent is satan?
No, I don't agree that the serpent is satan.
What I am pointing out is that we are seeing your pointless avoiding of the inferences. It is pretty obvious that the serpent brought his subtil nature to his first conversation with Eve. If you want to believe that he was not subtil prior to that, there is no basis for doing so.
But what's more, the idea does not serve your purpose. If in fact, the serpent's role in the affair, which took place before Eve acted and before Eve questioned God's commandment, was punishable, then the serpent committed the first act against God. And of course the serpent was punished.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 551 by Blue, posted 05-19-2014 12:04 AM Blue has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 559 by Blue, posted 05-19-2014 10:01 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 558 of 591 (727589)
05-19-2014 9:28 AM
Reply to: Message 554 by Blue
05-19-2014 9:11 AM


Re: God's cure-all : Rampant slaughter
think there are varying opinions on what people in this forum are doing. You maybe trying to argue that the God of the bible is different than my interpretation. However nobody here has successfully refuted/changed my thoughts except modulus with respect to sabbath day.
Amusing. Bragging about being a rock head.
Your interpretations are flawed and non Biblical, and one does not need to be an atheist to point that out. I am not an atheist. I just find your departures from the text unjustifiable.
I've read you actually argue that enslaving children for seven years after dad is set free is okay because at least the children were being fed. I am sure you are aware that those same arguments were made in this country in the 1800s. Nobody same thinks that nonsense is the least bit persuasive.
Whether you like it or not, there are issues with a literal reading of Genesis, and your refusal to acknowledge problems that any fool can see does not make the problems go away.
And please stop saying "would of". The correct usage is "would have".
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 554 by Blue, posted 05-19-2014 9:11 AM Blue has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 560 by Blue, posted 05-19-2014 10:09 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 565 of 591 (727611)
05-19-2014 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 562 by Larni
05-19-2014 11:29 AM


Re: Satan
If God originally made us to be able to fly and then downgraded us not to be able to fly would our free will be more or less restricted than if we never could fly?
Did anything like that happen? Was something like that proposed in the scenario I addressed.
As far as I know, human beings have never had the ability to fly unaided, and neither have any of the animals from which they evolved. Perhaps your question is something a penguin might ponder, but it does not seem like an appropriate for a human being.
If I take your question seriously, I might point out that unaided flight is physically impossible for anything remotely the size and shape of human beings and that no creature I've ever observed has any magical activities. One might well ask if a boulder too heavy to lift is an imposition on free will.
Perhaps your question simply implies something about the nature of God and the universe that I simply don't believe to be relevant.
How about these alternative question. You are no longer capable of surviving in trees as did your ancestors millions of years ago. Is that some kind of imposition on your free will?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 562 by Larni, posted 05-19-2014 11:29 AM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 567 by Larni, posted 05-19-2014 1:36 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 569 of 591 (727646)
05-19-2014 2:32 PM
Reply to: Message 567 by Larni
05-19-2014 1:36 PM


Re: Satan
You said that there was a difference in not being able to fly (with regard to free will) and not being able to do harm (with regard to free will).
I still maintain that.
My point was that if we were never able to do harm it
Not being able to harm others because of a mental block or because everyone is invulnerable? Because the mental block thing would be depriving you of free will.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 567 by Larni, posted 05-19-2014 1:36 PM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 570 by Blue, posted 05-19-2014 3:12 PM NoNukes has not replied
 Message 571 by Blue, posted 05-19-2014 3:14 PM NoNukes has not replied
 Message 576 by Larni, posted 05-19-2014 3:38 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
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