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Author Topic:   What if Jesus and Satan were real?
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 496 of 591 (727398)
05-17-2014 7:11 PM
Reply to: Message 494 by Blue
05-17-2014 6:54 PM


Re: Satan
How did he set them up to fail?
Satan is under Yahweh's command (as is everything in creation) as such Yahweh could have said "stand down" and not tempted Eve (who had no capacity to know good from evil at that point in time).
Yahweh could have made it so Satan did not tempt Eve. Eve and Adam had no free will at that time as they had not partaken of the tree of knowledge; to understand the consequences of eating it and so where clearly unable to make an informed choice.
That is how he set them up to fail.

The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer.
-Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53
The explain to them any scientific investigation that explains the existence of things qualifies as science and as an explanation
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 286
Does a query (thats a question Stile) that uses this physical reality, to look for an answer to its existence and properties become theoretical, considering its deductive conclusions are based against objective verifiable realities.
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 134

This message is a reply to:
 Message 494 by Blue, posted 05-17-2014 6:54 PM Blue has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 498 by Blue, posted 05-17-2014 8:04 PM Larni has replied
 Message 499 by Blue, posted 05-17-2014 8:06 PM Larni has not replied
 Message 500 by Blue, posted 05-17-2014 8:16 PM Larni has replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 497 of 591 (727399)
05-17-2014 7:18 PM
Reply to: Message 495 by Blue
05-17-2014 6:55 PM


Re: Satan
But is it not possible for that to be so without having the majority of humanity being needlessly punished?
After all the majority of people born will go to Hell.
Matthew 7:13-14 "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."
And most simply for being born into the wrong culture, geographical region or time frame. and not having a chance to accept Jesus as Saviour:
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
So may people sent to Hell.

The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer.
-Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53
The explain to them any scientific investigation that explains the existence of things qualifies as science and as an explanation
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 286
Does a query (thats a question Stile) that uses this physical reality, to look for an answer to its existence and properties become theoretical, considering its deductive conclusions are based against objective verifiable realities.
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 134

This message is a reply to:
 Message 495 by Blue, posted 05-17-2014 6:55 PM Blue has not replied

  
Blue
Inactive Member


Message 498 of 591 (727402)
05-17-2014 8:04 PM
Reply to: Message 496 by Larni
05-17-2014 7:11 PM


Re: Satan
Nobody is under God's command. We live in free agency. The devil does choose to do God's bidding but only to satans benefit.

Sincerely
Blue

This message is a reply to:
 Message 496 by Larni, posted 05-17-2014 7:11 PM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 501 by Larni, posted 05-17-2014 8:23 PM Blue has replied

  
Blue
Inactive Member


Message 499 of 591 (727403)
05-17-2014 8:06 PM
Reply to: Message 496 by Larni
05-17-2014 7:11 PM


Re: Satan
Satan is a son of God like Jesus. He can appear as a regular angel. In my personal opinion they would seem like alien's. We would not recognize them as angels nesscesarily. These are real beings living in the universe and outside of it in God's place. I view God as mysterious in nature. Further eternity is not going to be dancing and singing in my view.
Edited by Blue, : Add

Sincerely
Blue

This message is a reply to:
 Message 496 by Larni, posted 05-17-2014 7:11 PM Larni has not replied

  
Blue
Inactive Member


Message 500 of 591 (727404)
05-17-2014 8:16 PM
Reply to: Message 496 by Larni
05-17-2014 7:11 PM


Re: Satan
Free agency has nothing to do with the tree of good/ evil.

Sincerely
Blue

This message is a reply to:
 Message 496 by Larni, posted 05-17-2014 7:11 PM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 502 by Larni, posted 05-17-2014 8:30 PM Blue has replied
 Message 505 by NoNukes, posted 05-17-2014 9:47 PM Blue has replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 501 of 591 (727405)
05-17-2014 8:23 PM
Reply to: Message 498 by Blue
05-17-2014 8:04 PM


Re: Satan
Nobody is under God's command
Not true.
1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
If we do not follow his commands (all of them) we end up in the Lake of Fire.
Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
If Yahweh was more loving he would not have made the world with sin in it. As I say: he set us up to fail. He caused creation to be like it is because he is in control of every possible parameter of reality.
He could magic away sin and retroactively save everyone who has ever existed: be he chooses not to.

The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer.
-Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53
The explain to them any scientific investigation that explains the existence of things qualifies as science and as an explanation
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 286
Does a query (thats a question Stile) that uses this physical reality, to look for an answer to its existence and properties become theoretical, considering its deductive conclusions are based against objective verifiable realities.
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 134

This message is a reply to:
 Message 498 by Blue, posted 05-17-2014 8:04 PM Blue has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 504 by Blue, posted 05-17-2014 8:55 PM Larni has not replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 502 of 591 (727406)
05-17-2014 8:30 PM
Reply to: Message 500 by Blue
05-17-2014 8:16 PM


Re: Satan
Free agency has nothing to do with the tree of good/ evil.
Yes it does. It is not possible for Adam or Eve to make and informed choice without the knowledge that the tree of knowledge provided.
What Yahweh did was to give an innocent child a poisoned cake and became angry when the child ate the cake.
Not very clever for a god.

The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer.
-Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53
The explain to them any scientific investigation that explains the existence of things qualifies as science and as an explanation
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 286
Does a query (thats a question Stile) that uses this physical reality, to look for an answer to its existence and properties become theoretical, considering its deductive conclusions are based against objective verifiable realities.
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 134

This message is a reply to:
 Message 500 by Blue, posted 05-17-2014 8:16 PM Blue has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 503 by Blue, posted 05-17-2014 8:53 PM Larni has not replied

  
Blue
Inactive Member


Message 503 of 591 (727407)
05-17-2014 8:53 PM
Reply to: Message 502 by Larni
05-17-2014 8:30 PM


Re: Satan
No. The knowledge of good and evil is of good and evil. They just wouldn't have knowledge.
Edited by Blue, : Err

Sincerely
Blue

This message is a reply to:
 Message 502 by Larni, posted 05-17-2014 8:30 PM Larni has not replied

  
Blue
Inactive Member


Message 504 of 591 (727408)
05-17-2014 8:55 PM
Reply to: Message 501 by Larni
05-17-2014 8:23 PM


Re: Satan
We do need to keep his commandments but that doesn't mean we are not free. You get to choose. Yes there is judgement if you break them but it is still freedom to choose.

Sincerely
Blue

This message is a reply to:
 Message 501 by Larni, posted 05-17-2014 8:23 PM Larni has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 512 by Archer Opteryx, posted 05-18-2014 9:12 AM Blue has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 505 of 591 (727411)
05-17-2014 9:47 PM
Reply to: Message 500 by Blue
05-17-2014 8:16 PM


Re: Satan
Free agency has nothing to do with the tree of good/ evil.
So why was it within easy reach of Adam and Eve? What was the point of having the tree there and having only Adam and Eve's obedience to God's command being what kept them from eating of the tree.
In what other way could Adam and Eve have chosen to disobey?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 500 by Blue, posted 05-17-2014 8:16 PM Blue has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 506 by Blue, posted 05-18-2014 1:50 AM NoNukes has not replied
 Message 507 by Blue, posted 05-18-2014 1:51 AM NoNukes has replied
 Message 508 by Blue, posted 05-18-2014 1:58 AM NoNukes has replied

  
Blue
Inactive Member


Message 506 of 591 (727413)
05-18-2014 1:50 AM
Reply to: Message 505 by NoNukes
05-17-2014 9:47 PM


Re: Satan
The bible doesn't speak on that question.

Sincerely
Blue

This message is a reply to:
 Message 505 by NoNukes, posted 05-17-2014 9:47 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
Blue
Inactive Member


Message 507 of 591 (727414)
05-18-2014 1:51 AM
Reply to: Message 505 by NoNukes
05-17-2014 9:47 PM


Re: Satan
I'm lead to think evil would not of entered the world.

Sincerely
Blue

This message is a reply to:
 Message 505 by NoNukes, posted 05-17-2014 9:47 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 509 by NoNukes, posted 05-18-2014 4:10 AM Blue has replied

  
Blue
Inactive Member


Message 508 of 591 (727415)
05-18-2014 1:58 AM
Reply to: Message 505 by NoNukes
05-17-2014 9:47 PM


Re: Satan
If you think about it from a human perspective which is all we have, I would argue we would have lived in harmony with God. Actual evil and good is thought out. Don't get me wrong, good things happen accidently but I don't think they quantify as love. Ditto to evil as hate... We would of lived forever... Seems sureal to think about.
Edited by Blue, : Er

Sincerely
Blue

This message is a reply to:
 Message 505 by NoNukes, posted 05-17-2014 9:47 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 510 by NoNukes, posted 05-18-2014 4:14 AM Blue has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 509 of 591 (727417)
05-18-2014 4:10 AM
Reply to: Message 507 by Blue
05-18-2014 1:51 AM


Re: Satan
I'm lead to think evil would not of entered the world.
I don't see how you reach that conclusion. Wasn't the snake evil? Some people even believe the snake was the enemy.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 507 by Blue, posted 05-18-2014 1:51 AM Blue has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 513 by Blue, posted 05-18-2014 11:59 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 510 of 591 (727418)
05-18-2014 4:14 AM
Reply to: Message 508 by Blue
05-18-2014 1:58 AM


Re: Satan
I would argue we would have lived in harmony with God.
And you are saying that God would not want that? Given that God created the universe, that does not leave many great options. One possibility is that God does not think harmony with people who have no choice is all that great. In fact, I don't see much alternative to that.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 508 by Blue, posted 05-18-2014 1:58 AM Blue has not replied

  
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