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Author Topic:   Homosexuality and Evo, Creo, and ID
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 241 of 1309 (723436)
04-01-2014 2:22 PM
Reply to: Message 240 by Raphael
04-01-2014 1:35 PM


From a "religious" side of things, as a Christian, neither conclusion is at odds with the Biblical perspective. If it is not genetic, as the studies provided, then that makes sense Biblically, and if it is a choice, then that also makes sense. Personally I believe it is a combination of all factors.
Did you see my Message 123?
It looks like Jesus said that they were born that way.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by Raphael, posted 04-01-2014 1:35 PM Raphael has replied

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Raphael
Member
Posts: 173
From: Southern California, United States
Joined: 09-29-2007


Message 242 of 1309 (723451)
04-01-2014 4:28 PM
Reply to: Message 241 by New Cat's Eye
04-01-2014 2:22 PM


I had not seen that earlier, I will respond to that message

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 898 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 243 of 1309 (723452)
04-01-2014 4:32 PM
Reply to: Message 240 by Raphael
04-01-2014 1:35 PM


If I remember correctly I believe Lokaire's OP contained a link with multiple sources confirming there is no biological evidence for homosexuality being genetic. ...
Nope, what they showed was that a genetic link had not been found, a rather important difference -- there could still be some genetic element that has not been found.
Personally I believe (and there is some evidence that backs this) it is something that occurs during fetal development, something due to environmental chemicals and hormones affecting the mother. This would be consistent with homosexuality in animals, while choice would not (unless you think a LOT of animals have the cognition ability similar to humans to make such a choice).
Such environmental\hormonal factors could extend into childhood, but my personal feeling is that it occurs during fetal development.
... Regardless, it seems silly to argue about whether or not sexual orientation is genetic or not.
Indeed, it is much more rational to accept it as natural (occurs in nature. other animals, not just human), and it is not detrimental, as far as I can see.
Regardless, and from a non religious side of things, my thoughts on the issue is that this country has been and is about equal rights, both for the individual AND the collective, and freedom for those who are oppressed. Equal rights for the oppressed (contextually here, homosexuals) is something Christians should fight for, as that is what Jesus fought for. Hopefully that means seeking, fighting, and supporting something better for those who feel oppressed. Which isn't always homosexuals nowadays, by the way.
Agreed, and it fits with the American heritage of upholding basic human rights.
For those that have problems with homosexuality there is treatment to resolve or cure their homophobia.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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Raphael
Member
Posts: 173
From: Southern California, United States
Joined: 09-29-2007


(2)
Message 244 of 1309 (723453)
04-01-2014 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by New Cat's Eye
03-25-2014 8:36 PM


Re: Same old, same old.
Catholic Scientist writes:
Lokiare said:
Actually the new testament was written during Roman times when homosexuality was an oddity, but not persecuted or even looked down upon. So they were going against social norms, not with them.
Have you heard of eunuchs? People usually think that just means a castrated man, but that's not wholly correct. It also included uncastrated men, or people who just don't get married, including priests.
The eunuchs played certain social roles, many which were helped by them being nonsexual.
I think the homosexuals were included in the grouping. And practically, if the guy likes cutting hair and won't bang your mistress then it wouldn't really matter if he was gay instead of castrated.
There are a few things I want to address here that are of interest.
Firstly, Lokiare's comment that homosexuality in rome was an oddity is a little inaccurate. Homosexuality in Rome was quite common and thought of as the social norm for men as long as the one being penetrated was either a slave or one of the "infames" (entertainers, gladiators, etc). Roman males did not view either sexuality or masculinity in the same way we do now. There was no stigma attached to a man lying with another man as long as he was the one doing the penetrating. This was part of their conquest mentality and therefore was pretty normal, at least in the Republic and early Principate time periods. Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_ancient_Rome. Homosexuality within the female demographic we simply do not know much about due to the fact that the female sexuality was simply deemed as unimportant in a society dominated by men and therefore male Roman writers did not write about it.
Your thought that homosexuals are included in the general term, "eunuch" is an interesting one, and may in fact be true, but I do not believe the Bible supports this position. Eunuchs are believed to not usually be Jewish, as castrating a male and being a castrated male were punishable offenses under the addition to the law in Deuteronomy. Can give a verse if needed. Also eunuchs are usually not spoken of as even being jewish/israelite in the Bible, usually mentioned as being other races/nationalities or slaves. (Ethiopian Eunuch in Acts 8 is a good example). There are exceptions of course.
quote:
12 For there are eunuchs who were born that way, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by othersand there are those who choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven.
Jesus mentions three types of eunuchs, going backwards:
-for the sake of heaven, these are the priests
-made that way by others, these are the castrated
-born that way, ?
Sounds like he's talking about the gays there. It can't be men who are born without testicles, that so rare and negligible that it isn't worth mentioning. But as you said, in roman times there were plenty of gay men skipping around. So it makes sense that they are mentioned.
What do you think about Jesus saying they were born that way, as opposed to it being a choice?
When you look at a verse like this you need to look at the greater context. Jesus has just finished speaking about divorce, giving out his standards for leaving your wife (which were much stricter than the Jewish laws at the time.) His intention was to encourage men to actually committ to their wives and become one flesh instead of divorcing them over foolish reasons). The disciples responded, saying that if marriage was that hard to maintain it would be easier to never marry at all. Jesus responds with the text you quoted, saying:
Jesus writes:
For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Let the one who is able to receive this receive it. - Matt 19:12
The part you left out, "Let the one who is able to receive this receive it," is important because Jesus is basically saying that being a eunuch is actually somewhat ideal, if you can handle it.
The greek word for "eunuch" is a combination of the words "eun (bed) and ech (to have, hold, withhold). Literally meaning, "to withhold the bed." Source: http://biblehub.com/greek/2135.htm Therefore, all three classifications of eunuch literally mean celibate, not only the one you dubbed as "the priests."
So in summary,"Born this way" could mean that the men are either born without attraction to femininity or they were simply asexual. Either way, homosexuality is not spoken of an an alternative to being a eunuch, Jesus actually speaks of celibacy as something all should consider or "Receive" if you are able. Even if he was speaking to homosexuality it really wouldn't matter, because he's advocating a higher standard for relationships in general.
The "for the sake of heaven" part you mentioned is actually: "For the sake of the Kingdom of heaven, which is the way in which we live life right now that coincides with how heaven operates. In this context, basically the whole point Jesus is making is this:
"You may think that marriage is about yourself, but it's not. It is about giving up your right to yourself and focusing 100% on the other person, and for you (speaking to the jews who were listening) to get a divorce because you think it is a quick solution is selfish. Try harder. Love better. And, better yet, if you really want to be unselfish, become a eunuch, denying yourself even sexuality so that you can focus more on loving other people rather than seeking your own pleasure. This my friends, is truly a hard thing to do. But with God, even the impossible is...well you know the rest
Thanks!
- Raph
Edited by Raphael, : No reason given.
Edited by Raphael, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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onifre
Member (Idle past 2444 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


(1)
Message 245 of 1309 (723474)
04-02-2014 9:48 AM
Reply to: Message 187 by Faith
03-26-2014 4:04 PM


Re: Why are choices fair game?
One way or another if we want to stand for our Biblical beliefs we'll have to take some kind of punishment.
Is it really a "Biblical belief" that you can't sell cakes to gay people for their event?
Is this in the Bible or are you concluding this based off of an already existing dislike of gays?
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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onifre
Member (Idle past 2444 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


(12)
Message 246 of 1309 (723477)
04-02-2014 10:21 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by lokiare
03-25-2014 9:42 PM


Re: Why are choices fair game?
Just don't try to force it on me or into my establishments. Don't try to force my church to marry homosexuals and don't force my Christian baker friend to make cakes for a homosexual wedding.
I agree. I don't even want them in the same schools as my kids or drinking from the same water fountain. I mean seriously, what if my kid catches gay?
The other day I was eating at a diner and a gay walked in and sat at the counter! The counter!!! Like he was equal to the rest of us heterosexauls! I mean the nerve. Forcing me to breathe the same air as him? No thank you. Luckily, he was just picking up and leaving - probably some kale salad, or whatever - and didn't stay long. But I tell you, I didn't take one bite of my sandwich till he left. No way, and you can't force me to.
One day, hopefully soon, we can get some laws protecting the rights of heterosexuals to never have to see a gay person or interact with one again. Separate schools, public transportation, bathooms, water fountains, social gatherings, theaters, restaurants and where ever else, good, morally right heteros hang out. It's only fair. They shouldn't make laws that force us to integrate!
- Oni
Edited by onifre, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by lokiare, posted 03-25-2014 9:42 PM lokiare has not replied

ringo
Member
Posts: 20877
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 247 of 1309 (723481)
04-02-2014 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 245 by onifre
04-02-2014 9:48 AM


Re: Why are choices fair game?
Onifre writes:
Is it really a "Biblical belief" that you can't sell cakes to gay people for their event?
If you read it "properly", the Bible also condemns maraschino cherries.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by onifre, posted 04-02-2014 9:48 AM onifre has not replied

Larni
Member (Idle past 195 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 248 of 1309 (723483)
04-02-2014 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 227 by lokiare
03-28-2014 2:41 PM


I looked at one of the papers you posted (at random) and was very interested in the following rebuttal of the paper about abused children being turned gay.
Homosexual orientation-from nature, not abuse: A critique of Roberts, Glymour, and Koenen (2013) - PubMed
I assume you have read it?

The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer.
-Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53
The explain to them any scientific investigation that explains the existence of things qualifies as science and as an explanation
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 286
Does a query (thats a question Stile) that uses this physical reality, to look for an answer to its existence and properties become theoretical, considering its deductive conclusions are based against objective verifiable realities.
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 134

This message is a reply to:
 Message 227 by lokiare, posted 03-28-2014 2:41 PM lokiare has not replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 544 days)
Posts: 16112
Joined: 07-20-2006


(9)
Message 249 of 1309 (723492)
04-02-2014 8:22 PM
Reply to: Message 245 by onifre
04-02-2014 9:48 AM


Re: Why are choices fair game?
Is it really a "Biblical belief" that you can't sell cakes to gay people for their event?
Of course.
For of thy eclairs, thy cupcakes, and thy muffins, thou shalt not sell unto the dykes, they that are bull, neither unto the bandits of the ass.
For the LORD thy God careth, I mean, he really really careth, behold, he's kind of obsessional about it, lo, he needeth help if you ask me. Anyway, he really careth about what the children of Israel, yea, and the Gentiles also, do with the naughty bits that he hath fashioned for them.
And behold, he hath decreed that if a man lieth with a man, or a woman with a woman, then that man, or woman, respectively, shall eat not of the cakes of deliciousness, yea, and even unto pastries also. Nor shall they have pudding. Thus saith the LORD.
Book of Cakes, ch. 4
See, it's right there in the Bible, just after the bit denouncing gun control and just before the bit explaining why the Bush tax cuts shouldn't have been allowed to lapse.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 898 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 250 of 1309 (723494)
04-02-2014 9:52 PM
Reply to: Message 249 by Dr Adequate
04-02-2014 8:22 PM


Re: Why are choices fair game?
You forgot the part where he wroe out the constitution ... or was that Mohamed?

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

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Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3898
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001


(1)
Message 251 of 1309 (726943)
05-14-2014 1:32 AM


Courts strike down anti-gay maraige in Arkansas and Idaho
Best topic I could find for this.
State Judge Strikes Down AR Marriage Ban
U.S. Magistrate Judge Candy Dale has ruled Idaho’s ban on gay marriage is unconstitutional
Yes, bare links. But I wanted to get this into the record somewhere. Go to the linked pages to read more.
Moose

Professor, geology, Whatsamatta U
Evolution - Changes in the environment, caused by the interactions of the components of the environment.
"Do not meddle in the affairs of cats, for they are subtle and will piss on your computer." - Bruce Graham
"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness." - John Kenneth Galbraith
"Yesterday on Fox News, commentator Glenn Beck said that he believes President Obama is a racist. To be fair, every time you watch Glenn Beck, it does get a little easier to hate white people." - Conan O'Brien
"I know a little about a lot of things, and a lot about a few things, but I'm highly ignorant about everything." - Moose

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Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 3851
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


Message 252 of 1309 (726944)
05-14-2014 1:38 AM
Reply to: Message 251 by Minnemooseus
05-14-2014 1:32 AM


Re: Courts strike down anti-gay maraige in Arkansas and Idaho
That's wonderful news!
"Candy Dale" is perfect. I'm waiting for the conspiracy theories.

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 937 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 253 of 1309 (726946)
05-14-2014 4:44 AM
Reply to: Message 251 by Minnemooseus
05-14-2014 1:32 AM


Re: Courts strike down anti-gay maraige in Arkansas and Idaho
This is truly insane, all this Gay Rights stuff you are all so thrilled to see happening. It's as if you've all lost your minds, your perspective on the meaning of freedom of speech and all the rest of it. Absolutely amazing.
A few posts above Dr A is mocking the plight of Christian business owners who have been targeted by Gay Rights advocates to punish them for refusing to provide services that would imply approval of gay marriage, which would violate their consciences. As usual he also twists the context to imply that Christians wouldn't serve homosexuals at all but this is false and has been shown over and over to be false. There is no reason a Christian would not provide ordinary services to homosexuals or anybody else under normal circumstances, it is strictly gay marriage they refuse to validate.
And above that onifre does a very similar sort of mockery, and oh just look at the approval rating these fascistic opinions get! Sure is looking to me like America is now about up to the 30s in our Nazi/fascist growth trajectory.
There is no problem with an ordinary birthday cake, but there is a problem with a specially ordered cake in honor of gay marriage, which is a clear violation of Biblical standards. Homosexuality is a sin, it is not a race or a class of people, it's a sin and an aberration, and gay marriage is a double sin because marriage is a God-given ordinance that is violated by its extension to homosexuals.
Likewise with the services of a Christian photographer. There should be no problem with taking photographs of a birthday party, but there is a problem with taking photographs of a gay wedding.
Clearly there is no reason for the gays to require Christians to provide these services, there are plenty of business owners that would do them without suffering a violation of their conscience, but obviously the Christians are being targeted to be punished. This is a specifically ANTI-Christian movement, it has no other purpose.
Legalizing gay marriage in the courts is all of the same objective. This is an anti-Christian movement. Homosexuals have always been free to make their own unions however they want to, but making a law demanding that their unions be recognized by the state as legal is nothing but a way of forcing an unwelcome anti-Christian standard on Christians.
Here's some perspective: If a Nazi went into a bakery and asked for a specially made cake for a celebration with an inscription saying White Supremacy Uber Alles or some such, MOST bakery owners would refuse to make it and none of you would be pleased with the Nazis taking them to court to require them to make the cake. But you think it's right to do that to a Christian baker who refuses to make a wedding cake for a gay wedding.
You would not side with a provocateur who wanted to sue a Jewish deli for refusing to make him a ham sandwich.
In fact, reverse the situation: You would not side with the Phelps people if they wanted to sue a lesbian photographer for refusing to take photos of an anti-gay rally.
But it thrills your black little hearts if a gay couple set up a Christian business to be fined for refusing to celebrate their wedding.
Because you don't care about American freedoms, you want to see Christians punished, although originally our American freedoms were aimed at protecting Christians.
So the more laws there are that force Christians into a corner, into having to pay fines because of your fascist laws -- which did happen to the bakery so frequently exampled here -- even perhaps get put in prison because of your fascist laws, the happier you are. And you don't even know you're fascists, bullies and tyrants who are violating the very heart of American freedoms by forcing your insanely tyrannical laws on Christians.
Homosexuality is sin according to the Bible. Homosexuals are specifically identified in the Bible as not inheriting the Kingdom of God. They need to be warned for their own sake, especially if they have any idea whatever that they are Christians, as many absurdly and delusionally do. But no, such laws deny us the right to warn them away from an eternal misery. This is insanity.
Homosexuals are a danger to themselves and society too, as the AIDS epidemic, which has not gone away, started with sodomy in the public baths of San Francisco and continues with promiscuous sodomy. All that is swept under the carpet. Imagine that, a deadly disease just swept under the carpet for the sake of political correctness and whitewashing an aberration that was always known to be an aberration, not just by Christians but by just about everybody once upon a time, until everybody lost their minds in the last few decades. This is insanity, this is practically the definition of insanity.
That doesn't mean gays aren't citizens who should be treated equally as citizens, but that does not include pretending it's normal, let alone even remotely consistent with Christianity, or legalizing gay marriage, which is insane.
So let's now watch you all trot out your most egregiously criminally insane fascistic tyrannical vicious anti-Christian anti-American language in response to this, twisting it all to make ME the villain of course.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Replies to this message:
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Heathen
Member (Idle past 776 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 254 of 1309 (726948)
05-14-2014 5:35 AM
Reply to: Message 253 by Faith
05-14-2014 4:44 AM


Re: Courts strike down anti-gay maraige in Arkansas and Idaho
if they have any idea whatever that they are Christians, as many absurdly and delusionally do
so your implication here is that a homosexual cannot be christian, but your definition of christian on another thread is:
quote:
Paul taught salvation by faith alone quite clearly over and over again
  —"Faith in "what is a 'true christian'?" thread"
quote:
The full Reformation formula taken from the scriptures is that we're saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone
  —"Faith in "what is a 'true christian'?" thread"
So, although a "Sinner" by virtue of their homsexuality, it certainly does not disbarr them from being Christian.
That doesn't mean gays aren't citizens who should be treated equally as citizens
And that is all they request to be treated EQUALLY in all aspects of their daily life. This means not being discriminated against, whether that means in a bakery, a bus, a wedding chapel or wherever.
Why do you find this such a threat to your life?
Edited by Heathen, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by Faith, posted 05-14-2014 4:44 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 937 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 255 of 1309 (726949)
05-14-2014 5:38 AM
Reply to: Message 254 by Heathen
05-14-2014 5:35 AM


Re: Courts strike down anti-gay maraige in Arkansas and Idaho
And here we go. Good morning Heathen.
Salvation is by REPENTANCE and faith. You cannot be a PRACTICING sinner and be saved. You need to read all that I wrote on that subject.
You'd be happy if a bakery discriminated against a white supremacist who wanted a cake to celebrate white supremacy. These things are a matter of conscience, but you want to put the Christian conscience in fascist chains.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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