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Author Topic:   Is there a legitimate argument for design?
Ed67
Member (Idle past 3328 days)
Posts: 159
Joined: 04-14-2014


Message 226 of 638 (725242)
04-24-2014 11:55 PM
Reply to: Message 224 by New Cat's Eye
04-24-2014 8:50 PM


Re: What does the CODE in DNA do?
CS writes:
frako writes:
Where do you see the code?
The same place Watson and Crick saw it, silly.
I don't believe you.
If you don't believe that, there's nothing i can do for you.
If you could be more specific about how you think you're saying the same things, then you might make more sense.
If you can't make sense of what I've said so far, nothing I say will make sense to you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 224 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-24-2014 8:50 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 227 by Omnivorous, posted 04-25-2014 12:31 AM Ed67 has not replied
 Message 228 by subbie, posted 04-25-2014 12:31 AM Ed67 has not replied
 Message 236 by JonF, posted 04-25-2014 8:00 AM Ed67 has not replied
 Message 239 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-25-2014 9:17 AM Ed67 has not replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3977
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


(2)
Message 227 of 638 (725246)
04-25-2014 12:31 AM
Reply to: Message 226 by Ed67
04-24-2014 11:55 PM


Re: What does the CODE in DNA do?
Ed writes:
CS writes:
frako writes:
Where do you see the code?
The same place Watson and Crick saw it, silly.
I don't believe you.
If you don't believe that, there's nothing i can do for you.
If you could be more specific about how you think you're saying the same things, then you might make more sense.
If you can't make sense of what I've said so far, nothing I say will make sense to you.
How you do go on--but, in this case, I agree.

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by Ed67, posted 04-24-2014 11:55 PM Ed67 has not replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1254 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


(1)
Message 228 of 638 (725247)
04-25-2014 12:31 AM
Reply to: Message 226 by Ed67
04-24-2014 11:55 PM


Re: What does the CODE in DNA do?
You still have yet to explain why you keep citing James Watson to support your bizarre ideas that Watson himself says are only for the uneducated.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
Howling about evidence is a conversation stopper, and it never stops to think if the claim could possibly be true -- foreveryoung

This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by Ed67, posted 04-24-2014 11:55 PM Ed67 has not replied

  
Ed67
Member (Idle past 3328 days)
Posts: 159
Joined: 04-14-2014


Message 229 of 638 (725248)
04-25-2014 1:25 AM
Reply to: Message 225 by Dr Adequate
04-24-2014 9:14 PM


Re: What does the CODE in DNA do?
sore loser

This message is a reply to:
 Message 225 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-24-2014 9:14 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
frako
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 230 of 638 (725251)
04-25-2014 2:09 AM
Reply to: Message 222 by Ed67
04-24-2014 7:29 PM


Re: What does the CODE in DNA do?
The same place Watson and Crick saw it, silly. This is getting really pathetic, dude. You can't even understand the basic function of DNA.
making proteins
to make a protein A polymerase binds to the dna and splits it apart because thats the chemical reaction you get when those 2 things interact. It then syntesises a mRNA from the chemichal reactions that take place. Than mRNA strand leaves the nucleus and reacts with a ribosome. The protein is then built by chemical reactions oncly certein molecules can react with the part of mRNA that is reacting with the ribosome when they do the ribosome moves up 3 spaces and only certrtein molecules can react with that part of the mRNA molecule slowly building up the protein when the end is reached a water molecule is added the protein brakes free, and the rest falls apart.
where is the code? What does it do and how does it work?

Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand
What are the Christians gonna do to me ..... Forgive me, good luck with that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by Ed67, posted 04-24-2014 7:29 PM Ed67 has not replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 163 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 231 of 638 (725254)
04-25-2014 4:48 AM
Reply to: Message 216 by Ed67
04-24-2014 4:00 PM


Re: What does the CODE in DNA do?
Hi Ed67, welcome to EvC!
Ed67 writes:
In a molecule.
I think the point people are trying to make is that there is nothing in the molecule (other than the various bonds). The physical structure is the sum totality of the molecule and all of the effects it can have are a result of the physical structure.
It simply is. It does not have something non physical embedded into it to act the way it does.

The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer.
-Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53
The explain to them any scientific investigation that explains the existence of things qualifies as science and as an explanation
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 286
Does a query (thats a question Stile) that uses this physical reality, to look for an answer to its existence and properties become theoretical, considering its deductive conclusions are based against objective verifiable realities.
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 134

This message is a reply to:
 Message 216 by Ed67, posted 04-24-2014 4:00 PM Ed67 has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


(5)
Message 232 of 638 (725258)
04-25-2014 7:32 AM


EBCDIC to ASCII and Beyond
Hey folks, our creationist antagonist here, Ed67, is going to insist that the order of nucleics in DNA/RNA is a code and for very good reason. The reality is, as we here all know, that DNA/RNA mimic so closely a human-devised code that there is no reasonable option in conversation than to refer to them as codes. Language takes the expedient route to foster understanding even if that understanding isn't exactly accurate.
Big Bang explosion anyone?
The problem here is that our religionist friend, and he has left the clues multiple times in this thread, has not progressed from the DNA=code analogy he learned in high school. He is stuck in that juvenile analogy having failed to learn beyond the most basic.
In Ed67's case, this may be charade to bolster his religious case for creationism. But other aspects of his missives here indicate to me that he honestly does not see, and is trying very hard to not see, the disconnect between his "code" idea and his "thus god" conclusion. Without DNA/RNA defined as a "code" in the classic sense he cannot then jump to "all codes we have ever experienced were created by intelligence thus so must be DNA/RNA thus there are yhwh, elohim, jahovah, allah and their respective corteges complete with pronouncements of light, eloquent serpents and global inundations."
The rub comes with the reality that DNA/RNA, except for the superficial mimicry, is not anything like any code ever devised by human intellect. Human devised codes are arbitrary symbols, artificial human constructs, that, by agreement, represent other artificial human constructs. Letters for words, words for ideas; numbers for grids, grids for locations. Without a convention, a legend of agreed upon meanings between the symbol and its underlying construct, there is no code.
Though we may use arbitrary symbols (ACTG and sometimes U) in representing the DNA/RNA code the underlying property is not another construct but is a real physical entity that does not follow any artificial convention of understanding. The DNA/RNA "code" is just a facade to foster our understanding of the chemistry. These molecules have no choice but to act and react according to the physical rules of organic chemistry. Unlike the artificiality of a human code, this genetic code is a symbolic overlay for a physical reality that requires no intellect to conjure movement, only the electrochemical properties of the valence electrons.
To us it may look like a "code" but thymine couldn't care less what we call it and will do what it does because it has to regardless of the intellect selecting the symbol. No intelligently devised code on this planet works this way.
Ed67 is on an anti-science religious mission to redefine reality to his own emotional comfort, as is the case with all creationists. In Ed67's case he is not openly using verse from an infallible literalist bible. He is trying to hide behind a lab coat (buttoned up to the top to hide the crucifix) eschewing his true belief in his god for some amorphous intelligent designer. The nefarious purpose being to garner some political advantage in the hope that some day he and his colleagues can wrest control of the schools and of society from the people and bring them back, once again, to the church.
A rather verbose way of pointing out that the usage of "code" for a nucleic acid sequence is not of much concern. Ed67 will not, can not, acknowledge the fact that this informal usage of the word by geneticists, biologists, indeed all scientists, even in formal presentations and papers, does not give him the advantage his weak faith so desperately seeks.

Replies to this message:
 Message 234 by RAZD, posted 04-25-2014 7:57 AM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

  
Ed67
Member (Idle past 3328 days)
Posts: 159
Joined: 04-14-2014


Message 233 of 638 (725261)
04-25-2014 7:55 AM


Larni writes:
Hi Ed67, welcome to EvC!
Ed67 writes:
In a molecule.
I think the point people are trying to make is that there is nothing in the molecule (other than the various bonds). The physical structure is the sum totality of the molecule and all of the effects it can have are a result of the physical structure.
It simply is. It does not have something non physical embedded into it to act the way it does.
Thank you , Larni
quote:
James Watson and Francis Crick's insight that genetic information is embedded in the physical structure of deoxyribonucleic acid (DNA) made possible a new understanding of heredity at the molecular level and opened up new avenues of research into the genetic control of essential biological processes, most importantly the synthesis of proteins. Watson and Crick were the first to realize that the seemingly random sequence of the four bases in DNA formed a code which specified the order of the twenty amino acids that make up most proteins. (It was Watson and Crick who drew up the list of twenty from dispersed and confused information in the biochemical literature.)
http://profiles.nlm.nih.gov/...trieve/Narrative/SC/p-nid/153
Now, can anyone find in this quote WHERE the code is?
Edited by Ed67, : No reason given.
Edited by Ed67, : No reason given.
Edited by Ed67, : No reason given.
Edited by Ed67, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 234 of 638 (725262)
04-25-2014 7:57 AM
Reply to: Message 232 by AZPaul3
04-25-2014 7:32 AM


Re: EBCDIC to ASCII and Beyond -- the troll thinks he's on a roll
and he behaves increasingly like a troll in passing out insults and not answering questions ...
Personally I don't think he can answer the questions ... so he tries to pretend (to himself) that he does with replies he must think are quite witty, but which actually are relatively obviously simply failure to reply honestly.
He's in an axe fight ... with an axe to grind ... that is so dull that it can't cut the mustard ...

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Ed67
Member (Idle past 3328 days)
Posts: 159
Joined: 04-14-2014


Message 235 of 638 (725263)
04-25-2014 7:58 AM


I think you guys have spent too much time sitting around congratulating each other. You've got some kind of creepy 'group think' going on where you all have developed the same blind spots.
You all have to get out more...

Replies to this message:
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 Message 259 by ringo, posted 04-26-2014 12:08 PM Ed67 has not replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 167 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


(1)
Message 236 of 638 (725264)
04-25-2014 8:00 AM
Reply to: Message 226 by Ed67
04-24-2014 11:55 PM


Re: What does the CODE in DNA do?
If you don't believe that, there's nothing i can do for you.
Oh, there's plenty you could do it you understood the issue.
If you can't make sense of what I've said so far, nothing I say will make sense to you.
Damn right. Have you reflected on the fact that nothing you have said (or, it seems, will say) makes sense to anybody?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by Ed67, posted 04-24-2014 11:55 PM Ed67 has not replied

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1398
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


(10)
Message 237 of 638 (725267)
04-25-2014 8:16 AM
Reply to: Message 233 by Ed67
04-25-2014 7:55 AM


Let's see if we can get through with an analogy.
I don't know if you learned any languages at school, but I learned French and German. When you start out at school, you're taught the "rules" of the language - how verbs are conjugated, how words are ordered, how cases are constructed. It helps you to learn how to speak the language.
But here's the thing - no one created those "rules". They're simply an orderly description of how the language has evolved to operate. No one sat down with a pen and paper and determined how those "rules" would operate - they're simply descriptive tools that a teacher employs.
And as you become more educated in the language, and more fluent, you stop referring to the rules, and instead start using the language fluently to hold a conversation. In fact, you begin to realize that the "rules" have exceptions, that they get broken and that they change sometimes. They are simply an inadequate descriptive overlay of something which was never created using those "rules".
The situation is exactly the same with genetic "coding". This is a descriptive tool, used to assist the understanding of those starting to learn about DNA (or those who simply need a basic understanding of it).
As a scientist's expertise in the field grows (to the extremely high levels of many of the contributors here), the descriptive tool of "coding" becomes meaningless to their depth of understanding - and entirely misleading.
The use of the term "code" does not imply any writing of a code of any sort, in exactly the same way as the use of the term "rules" does not imply anyone creating the French language by inventing rules for it.

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 233 by Ed67, posted 04-25-2014 7:55 AM Ed67 has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 238 of 638 (725269)
04-25-2014 8:30 AM
Reply to: Message 234 by RAZD
04-25-2014 7:57 AM


Don't be a billy goat gruff
He's in an axe fight ... with an axe to grind ... that is so dull that it can't cut the mustard ...
No. He's a troll. EvC is about the easiest troll target I could imagine, and Ed67 is simply taking advantage of our desire for new creationist/ID meat to chew on.
And every message including yours and the one I am writing now simply feed the troll. Even AZPaul3's was an acknowledgement of irritation.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 234 by RAZD, posted 04-25-2014 7:57 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 240 by RAZD, posted 04-25-2014 10:13 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 239 of 638 (725273)
04-25-2014 9:17 AM
Reply to: Message 226 by Ed67
04-24-2014 11:55 PM


Re: What does the CODE in DNA do?
If you don't believe that,
He testified in court, under oath, that ID is not science. How can you think he's seeing the same thing as you?
there's nothing i can do for you.
Try writing a coherent argument that explains what you mean.
If you can't make sense of what I've said so far, nothing I say will make sense to you.
So you've reached your limit? Honestly, you've been very unimpressive. Its like you're hardly trying.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by Ed67, posted 04-24-2014 11:55 PM Ed67 has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 240 of 638 (725279)
04-25-2014 10:13 AM
Reply to: Message 238 by NoNukes
04-25-2014 8:30 AM


Re: Don't be a billy goat gruff
No. He's a troll. EvC is about the easiest troll target I could imagine, ...
Actually I think it is part of the natural evolution of creationists\IDologists on this forum, when the run out of the regurgitated pap they think is ammunition, there is nothing left so all they have to fall back on is nonsensical ramblings and insults.
... and Ed67 is simply taking advantage of our desire for new creationist/ID meat to chew on.
And all the meat has been chewed off long ago, leaving only gristle, the intractable belief in spite of evidence to the contrary.
And every message including yours and the one I am writing now simply feed the troll. Even AZPaul3's was an acknowledgement of irritation.
But so entertaining to watch the monkey dance ....

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
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