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Author Topic:   Is there a legitimate argument for design?
Ed67
Member (Idle past 3329 days)
Posts: 159
Joined: 04-14-2014


Message 166 of 638 (724954)
04-23-2014 8:42 AM
Reply to: Message 165 by Pressie
04-23-2014 6:07 AM


The Origin of DNA
Pressie writes:
Ed67 writes:
...or 're-create' an organism.
Or salt crystals.
Pressie writes:
DNA is chemistry...
And you show an appalling ignorance of the chemistry of DNA.
If you can't bring your high school knowledge of DNA to bear on the subject, I suggest you go back and finish high school before you come to the 'big boys' discussion.
Again, does anyone have anything INTELLIGENT to say about the origin of the DNA molecule?
I'll give you all a hint: it has to do with complex, specified information. Or you can call it a RECIPE if you want. Just bring your grey matter to bear on the subject PLEASE!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by Pressie, posted 04-23-2014 6:07 AM Pressie has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 169 by NoNukes, posted 04-23-2014 9:54 AM Ed67 has replied

  
Ed67
Member (Idle past 3329 days)
Posts: 159
Joined: 04-14-2014


Message 167 of 638 (724955)
04-23-2014 8:47 AM
Reply to: Message 156 by frako
04-21-2014 6:52 AM


frako writes:
I'm debunking the idea that you introduced, that of DNA as a blueprint.
'So get on with it. So far you have only made assertions.'(ed67)
A blueprint = a design plan or other technical drawing.
DNa is definitively not that
At best it would be an a punch-card-automaton, that produces proteins.
So get on with the debunking. So far you have simply maintained your assertions...
Unless, of course, you're only stating your preference in metaphors?
If so, that explains the lack of reasoned argument. OPINIONS don't need evidence.
Edited by Ed67, : No reason given.
Edited by Ed67, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by frako, posted 04-21-2014 6:52 AM frako has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by frako, posted 04-23-2014 9:30 AM Ed67 has replied

  
frako
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 168 of 638 (724963)
04-23-2014 9:30 AM
Reply to: Message 167 by Ed67
04-23-2014 8:47 AM


first use peek mode to copy quotes that you want to quote it looks nicer
Well its not a blueprint and it is more of an automaton or lets say nano-bot
A blueprint would mean that it is a design plan its not i dont see any paper and in in dna do you? Its not even coded instructions because it would not make any sense if it is a coded instruction who is reading it? Are you implying a cell has the capacity to read the instruction then decide what to do?
DNA is a molecule and it behaves in accordance to the laws of chemistry.
Sure it is a verry complex molecule you could even call it a nano-bot (ie molecular machine). but thats it
Proteins are made by stuff around the DNA chemically reacting with the DNA molecule.
There are no little gremlins looking at the DNA molecule saying aha this part here says the nose should be this shape lets go to work.
Its like when oxygen meets iron to produce rust, they dont go well my information says we should bind ourselves together to make rust and then they do it. It just happens because of chemical reactions do to their properties iron being "wanting" to give a way electrons and oxygen "wanting" them so they form rust.
Its the same for DNA all chemical reactions just a bit more complicated.

Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand
What are the Christians gonna do to me ..... Forgive me, good luck with that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by Ed67, posted 04-23-2014 8:47 AM Ed67 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by Ed67, posted 04-23-2014 10:30 AM frako has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 169 of 638 (724967)
04-23-2014 9:54 AM
Reply to: Message 166 by Ed67
04-23-2014 8:42 AM


Irony meter hit the peg.
If you can't bring your high school knowledge of DNA to bear on the subject, I suggest you go back and finish high school before you come to the 'big boys' discussion.
Again, does anyone have anything INTELLIGENT to say about the origin of the DNA molecule?
I'll give you all a hint: it has to do with complex, specified information.
Seriously, have you even taken a General Chemistry course? The absurdity of ridiculing someone's discussion of science by posting something even more infantile and unscientific is beyond belief.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by Ed67, posted 04-23-2014 8:42 AM Ed67 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by Ed67, posted 04-23-2014 10:43 AM NoNukes has replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1255 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


(4)
Message 170 of 638 (724970)
04-23-2014 10:02 AM
Reply to: Message 162 by Ed67
04-22-2014 9:15 PM


Re: DNA evolves
Ed67 writes:
By all means, debunk my idea of DNA as a 'blueprint'.
Others here are doing a marvelous job already, and you are ignoring their points. I have no reason to believe I'd be any more successful than they would. You are a troll.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
Howling about evidence is a conversation stopper, and it never stops to think if the claim could possibly be true -- foreveryoung

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by Ed67, posted 04-22-2014 9:15 PM Ed67 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 171 by Ed67, posted 04-23-2014 10:10 AM subbie has replied

  
Ed67
Member (Idle past 3329 days)
Posts: 159
Joined: 04-14-2014


Message 171 of 638 (724974)
04-23-2014 10:10 AM
Reply to: Message 170 by subbie
04-23-2014 10:02 AM


So much for the Debunking
subbie writes:
Ed67 writes:
By all means, debunk my idea of DNA as a 'blueprint'.
Others here are doing a marvelous job already, and you are ignoring their points. I have no reason to believe I'd be any more successful than they would. You are a troll.
Oooo, I hit a soft spot. I didn't think you had anything intelligent to say about my argument for design...this just proves it.
Any more 'debunkings'?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by subbie, posted 04-23-2014 10:02 AM subbie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by subbie, posted 04-23-2014 10:16 AM Ed67 has not replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1255 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


(2)
Message 172 of 638 (724975)
04-23-2014 10:16 AM
Reply to: Message 171 by Ed67
04-23-2014 10:10 AM


Re: So much for the Debunking
Ed67 writes:
Oooo, I hit a soft spot.
Thanks for that, I needed a good chuckle.
Edited by subbie, : Tyop

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
Howling about evidence is a conversation stopper, and it never stops to think if the claim could possibly be true -- foreveryoung

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by Ed67, posted 04-23-2014 10:10 AM Ed67 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 173 by Omnivorous, posted 04-23-2014 10:25 AM subbie has seen this message but not replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3978
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


(5)
Message 173 of 638 (724976)
04-23-2014 10:25 AM
Reply to: Message 172 by subbie
04-23-2014 10:16 AM


Re: So much for the Debunking
subbie writes:
Ed67 writes:
Oooo, I hit a soft spot.
Thanks for that, I needed a good chuckle.
The Black Knight always cracks jokes after you chop off his legs.
He'll ignore a few more days' worth of refutations, then declare victory.

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by subbie, posted 04-23-2014 10:16 AM subbie has seen this message but not replied

  
Ed67
Member (Idle past 3329 days)
Posts: 159
Joined: 04-14-2014


Message 174 of 638 (724979)
04-23-2014 10:30 AM
Reply to: Message 168 by frako
04-23-2014 9:30 AM


Is There a Legitimate Argument for Design?
frako writes:
A blueprint would mean that it is a design plan...
Now we're getting warmer... yes, the arrangement of nucleotides on DNA/RNA molecules IS a design plan for the organism. It is a 'recipe' written in base-4 digital code (because of the 4 possible bases in each position, as opposed to binary, which has only 2). Like any recipe, this one had to have an intelligent source, as it was 'written' some time BEFORE life started. Evolution could not have an effect until life began as a whole phenomenon.
Oh, and a the 'blueprint' is a different kind; not one to be read by humans, so it doesn't require paper.
Sure it is a verry complex molecule you could even call it a nano-bot (ie molecular machine). but thats it...Its the same for DNA all chemical reactions just a bit more complicated.
That's exactly true. You are getting to the point. Now the next question:
How did the DNA/RNA NANOBOT come to be 'constructed' so that it could CONTAIN, TRANSMIT AND INTERPRET the instructions to make functional proteins necessary for an organism to live?
Edited by Ed67, : No reason given.
Edited by Ed67, : No reason given.
Edited by Ed67, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by frako, posted 04-23-2014 9:30 AM frako has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-23-2014 12:22 PM Ed67 has replied
 Message 184 by frako, posted 04-23-2014 1:20 PM Ed67 has replied

  
Ed67
Member (Idle past 3329 days)
Posts: 159
Joined: 04-14-2014


Message 175 of 638 (724981)
04-23-2014 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 169 by NoNukes
04-23-2014 9:54 AM


Is there a legitimate argument for design?
NoNukes writes:
"If you can't bring your high school knowledge of DNA to bear on the subject, I suggest you go back and finish high school before you come to the 'big boys' discussion." -ed67
Again, does anyone have anything INTELLIGENT to say about the origin of the DNA molecule?
I'll give you all a hint: it has to do with complex, specified information.
Seriously, have you even taken a General Chemistry course? The absurdity of ridiculing someone's discussion of science by posting something even more infantile and unscientific is beyond belief.
By all means, go ahead and school me in the Chemistry of DNA, if you can. So far you're just huffing and puffing.
Still waiting for an INTELLIGENT, reasoned response to my main argument for design; the existence of a RECIPE embedded in DNA/RNA that requires a cause.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by NoNukes, posted 04-23-2014 9:54 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 176 by NoNukes, posted 04-23-2014 10:52 AM Ed67 has not replied
 Message 179 by ringo, posted 04-23-2014 11:55 AM Ed67 has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 176 of 638 (724984)
04-23-2014 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 175 by Ed67
04-23-2014 10:43 AM


By all means, go ahead and school me in the Chemistry of DNA, if you can. So far you're just huffing and puffing.
Not bothering with you. You are obviously an idiot if you think "full of code" and just saying "complex specified information" are anything that needs a rebuttal. I don't believe you are capable of understanding chemistry, and your inability to discuss your position in meaningful terms while mocking others who are trying to do so shows it.
There is no meaningful way to talk about DNA without talking about chemistry, yet you PRATT on with stuff we've heard and discussed here 100s of time as though it is all new. Offline we refer to that as being a dumbass, but I'm too polite to do that here.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by Ed67, posted 04-23-2014 10:43 AM Ed67 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 177 by subbie, posted 04-23-2014 10:57 AM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1255 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 177 of 638 (724985)
04-23-2014 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 176 by NoNukes
04-23-2014 10:52 AM


NoNukes writes:
...but I'm too polite to do that here.
I admire your restraint, sir.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
Howling about evidence is a conversation stopper, and it never stops to think if the claim could possibly be true -- foreveryoung

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by NoNukes, posted 04-23-2014 10:52 AM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 178 of 638 (725004)
04-23-2014 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 161 by Ed67
04-22-2014 8:08 PM


RE: Is there a legitimate argument for design?
Ed67 writes:
ringo writes:
There is nothing about the DNA molecule that is unique in its specific arrangement.
I'd like you to cite your source on this point, please, unless it's your opinion.
You have that backwards. You're the one making the positive claim that the DNA molecule is unique, so you're the one who's required to substantiate it. Every chemical compound is unique in its own way but if you think DNA is "more unique" than water, for example, if you think it has some "special" chemistry, you need to show us your evidence for that.
Ed67 writes:
This doesn't sound like any water I've seen:
"But what, exactly, is DNA? In short, DNA is a complex molecule that consists of many components, a portion of which are passed from parent organisms to their offspring during the process of reproduction." Nature - Not Found
Again, you'd have to show how the chemistry is unique.
Misquoting me, Ed67 writes:
"Ringo" writes:
Life is just a byproduct of DNA's natural chemistry.
What I said was, "It could be said that life is just a byproduct of DNA's natural chemistry." Message 160 This is a science-oriented forum and we appreciate rigor, especially when it comes to quotes.
Ed67 writes:
What makes you think that? That's what Francis Crick hypothesized and disproved in the fifties, isn't it?
I'm not awae that he disproved any such thing. Please explain.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by Ed67, posted 04-22-2014 8:08 PM Ed67 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 183 by Ed67, posted 04-23-2014 1:09 PM ringo has replied
 Message 185 by Ed67, posted 04-23-2014 1:38 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 179 of 638 (725006)
04-23-2014 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 175 by Ed67
04-23-2014 10:43 AM


Re: Is there a legitimate argument for design?
Ed67 writes:
Still waiting for an INTELLIGENT, reasoned response to my main argument for design; the existence of a RECIPE embedded in DNA/RNA that requires a cause.
Somebody already did that by pointing out that there is also a recipe for salt crystals embedded in Na and Cl. You need to show how that recipe is fundamentally different from the recipe in DNA.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by Ed67, posted 04-23-2014 10:43 AM Ed67 has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 180 of 638 (725012)
04-23-2014 12:22 PM
Reply to: Message 174 by Ed67
04-23-2014 10:30 AM


Re: Is There a Legitimate Argument for Design?
the arrangement of nucleotides on DNA/RNA molecules IS a design plan for the organism. It is a 'recipe' written in base-4 digital code (because of the 4 possible bases in each position, as opposed to binary, which has only 2). Like any recipe, this one had to have an intelligent source, as it was 'written' some time BEFORE life started. Evolution could not have an effect until life began as a whole phenomenon.
You berate people for just writing assertions and you ask people to cite their sources when they tell you something, and then you go and crap out a bunch of unsupported assertions.
And then you have the gall to ask us to provide some intelligent comments.
Tsk tsk.
You have no idea what you are talking about with DNA. Its just chemistry. There is no code. There is no need for intelligence to design it.
Did you see my post about growing salt crystals?
Its just chemistry.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by Ed67, posted 04-23-2014 10:30 AM Ed67 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 181 by Ed67, posted 04-23-2014 12:43 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
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