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Author Topic:   Big Bang Found
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 91 of 301 (723032)
03-26-2014 12:42 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by New Cat's Eye
03-25-2014 9:13 PM


Re: You haven't said much here...
Philosophical/theological are practically worthless?
Not so, Kimo Sabe!
How else is one to determine, after years of naval gazing, that one's own particular naval is the one perfect specimen in all the universe? Or something like that.
Actually, I think philosophy reach its peak in ancient Greece and has been treating water ever since, and theology hasn't yet risen to that level; theology is a null subject.
As Heinlein noted, "Theology is never any help; it is searching in a dark cellar at midnight for a black cat that isn't there. Theologians can persuade themselves of anything."
Philosophers keep reminding us that scientists receive, after years of study, a Doctor of Philosophy degree. Perhaps its time we changed that, eh? Philosophers have ridden on our coat tails long enough! Let's see how well they do on their own.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-25-2014 9:13 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-26-2014 9:32 AM Coyote has not replied
 Message 94 by Diomedes, posted 03-26-2014 10:09 AM Coyote has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 92 of 301 (723041)
03-26-2014 2:15 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by kbertsche
03-25-2014 12:48 PM


Re: You haven't said much here...
No, when Hawking claims that "Because there is a law such as gravity, the universe can and will create itself from nothing," he is claiming causation. He claims that the laws of nature cause the universe. But he doesn't explain where the laws of nature come from. He seems to treat them as pre-existent and eternal; they are effectively his god.
That is you injecting theology where Hawking did not. Hawkins says nothing about the origin of gravity. It is your assumption that Hawking must reason exactly as you do that is wrong.
ABE:
In fact your claim is just nonsense. What scientists actually tries to claim that there was some 'eternity' before the universe existed or that there is an eternity after the universe was created. You create the impression that your philosophy is not very well thought out.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by kbertsche, posted 03-25-2014 12:48 PM kbertsche has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 93 of 301 (723055)
03-26-2014 9:32 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by Coyote
03-26-2014 12:42 AM


Re: You haven't said much here...
How else is one to determine, after years of naval gazing, that one's own particular naval is the one perfect specimen in all the universe?
Doesn't it have something to do with rubbing blue paint in there?
Philosophers keep reminding us that scientists receive, after years of study, a Doctor of Philosophy degree. Perhaps its time we changed that, eh? Philosophers have ridden on our coat tails long enough!
Don't get me started. There's a whole new generation of neo-atheist "philosophers" out there on the web that like to talk about how all scientists are doing is really philosophy and that philosophers, like their elitist selves, are the ones who have paved the way for all our advancements. It really grinds my gears.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Coyote, posted 03-26-2014 12:42 AM Coyote has not replied

  
Diomedes
Member
Posts: 995
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013


(2)
Message 94 of 301 (723058)
03-26-2014 10:09 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by Coyote
03-26-2014 12:42 AM


Re: You haven't said much here...
Philosophers keep reminding us that scientists receive, after years of study, a Doctor of Philosophy degree. Perhaps its time we changed that, eh? Philosophers have ridden on our coat tails long enough! Let's see how well they do on their own.
I've always wondered about that myself. There should be qualifiers for different doctorate types. People that go to medical school have a 'medical doctorate'. Lawyers have a 'juris doctorate'. Yet someone with a doctorate in physics has the same qualifier as an individual with a doctorate in philosophy. Kind of unusual.
But if it makes you feel better, they have overloaded the term 'engineer'. I have a degree in electrical engineering. They call me an Electrical Engineer. The guy that is cleaning the bathroom in my building is a Sanitation Engineer.
I get no respect....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Coyote, posted 03-26-2014 12:42 AM Coyote has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by NoNukes, posted 03-26-2014 11:51 AM Diomedes has replied
 Message 101 by Theodoric, posted 03-27-2014 1:38 PM Diomedes has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 95 of 301 (723064)
03-26-2014 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by shadow71
03-25-2014 1:14 PM


Re: You haven't said much here...
shadow71 writes:
Prior to the big bang, when time did not exist, were there laws of nature
There is no "prior to the Big Bang", just like - as somebody else has noted - there is no "north of the North Pole". Are there laws of nature north of the North Pole?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by shadow71, posted 03-25-2014 1:14 PM shadow71 has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 96 of 301 (723066)
03-26-2014 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by 1.61803
03-25-2014 2:19 PM


Re: You haven't said much here...
The fundalmental forces that manifest reality would not be able to influence a vaccum.
Yes, they certainly can.
So in order for there to be something there must first be spacetime.
Vacuum is not the absence of space time. Vacuum is simply a place without matter, but perhaps including energy.
There was no gravity because gravity requires spacetime and matter.
Also incorrect. Both energy and mass generate produce the warping of space-time that is responsible for the effect of gravity.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by 1.61803, posted 03-25-2014 2:19 PM 1.61803 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by 1.61803, posted 03-27-2014 1:49 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 97 of 301 (723067)
03-26-2014 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by Diomedes
03-26-2014 10:09 AM


Re: You haven't said much here...
Lawyers have a 'juris doctorate'.
Only the most pompous type of idiot lawyer would ever attempt to get someone to call him 'doc' based on having a JD. There are advanced law degrees (LLM) and (SD) that actually have some academic status.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Diomedes, posted 03-26-2014 10:09 AM Diomedes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by Diomedes, posted 03-26-2014 12:19 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied
 Message 99 by shadow71, posted 03-27-2014 12:43 PM NoNukes has replied

  
Diomedes
Member
Posts: 995
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013


Message 98 of 301 (723072)
03-26-2014 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by NoNukes
03-26-2014 11:51 AM


Re: You haven't said much here...
Only the most pompous type of idiot lawyer...
Well, that would be all them, would it not?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by NoNukes, posted 03-26-2014 11:51 AM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
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shadow71
Member (Idle past 2933 days)
Posts: 706
From: Joliet, il, USA
Joined: 08-31-2010


Message 99 of 301 (723180)
03-27-2014 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by NoNukes
03-26-2014 11:51 AM


Re: You haven't said much here...
NoNukes writes:
Only the most pompous type of idiot lawyer would ever attempt to get someone to call him 'doc' based on having a JD. There are advanced law degrees (LLM) and (SD) that actually have some academic status.
It appears you have a very low opinion on the requirements to obtain a J.D.
What requirements are there to earn a PhD in the sciences?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by NoNukes, posted 03-26-2014 11:51 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by NoNukes, posted 03-27-2014 1:40 PM shadow71 has not replied
 Message 108 by Taq, posted 03-27-2014 5:24 PM shadow71 has replied

  
shadow71
Member (Idle past 2933 days)
Posts: 706
From: Joliet, il, USA
Joined: 08-31-2010


Message 100 of 301 (723181)
03-27-2014 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by Diomedes
03-26-2014 12:19 PM


Re: You haven't said much here...
Diomedes writes:
Well, that would be all them, would it not?
Thanks

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Diomedes, posted 03-26-2014 12:19 PM Diomedes has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 101 of 301 (723184)
03-27-2014 1:38 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by Diomedes
03-26-2014 10:09 AM


Re: You haven't said much here...
As a stay at home father and husband, I am a Domestic Engineer.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Diomedes, posted 03-26-2014 10:09 AM Diomedes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 102 of 301 (723186)
03-27-2014 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by shadow71
03-27-2014 12:43 PM


Re: You haven't said much here...
It appears you have a very low opinion on the requirements to obtain a J.D.
Well it happens that I have a very accurate and fairly high opinion of the requirements. My own JD required 89 hours of coursework spread over three evenings per week for about 4 years, no thesis required. But like most lawyers, I do not call myself Doctor anything, although I have run into a few who do otherwise. I also don't put Esq. on my correspondence, a practice I find equally silly.
What requirements are there to earn a PhD in the sciences?
Shadow71, you are making us lawyers look bad. How about starting with an MS degree, adding about 70 hours of additional course work, plus a dissertation, plus an oral defense. Possibly also some teaching experience req'd.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by shadow71, posted 03-27-2014 12:43 PM shadow71 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by Larni, posted 03-28-2014 4:56 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1503 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 103 of 301 (723187)
03-27-2014 1:49 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by NoNukes
03-26-2014 11:47 AM


Re: You haven't said much here...
Hello NoNukes,
I fail to see how a force can act upon something when there is no something for it to act upon. But Im sure you can show me where this is possible.
As for the last correction, thank you but I still do no see how gravity can have any effect "warpage of spacetime" if there is no spacetime to warp.

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by NoNukes, posted 03-26-2014 11:47 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by NoNukes, posted 03-27-2014 1:58 PM 1.61803 has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 104 of 301 (723189)
03-27-2014 1:58 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by 1.61803
03-27-2014 1:49 PM


Re: You haven't said much here...
I fail to see how a force can act upon something when there is no something for it to act upon.
You are assuming that only actions on matter count. Gravity affects the path of energy as well as the path of matter. So you might have energy generating a gravitational field that affects itself and other energy.
Also, look into the Casmir effect. Casimir effect - Wikipedia
As for the last correction, thank you but I still do no see how gravity can have any effect "warpage of spacetime" if there is no spacetime to warp.
You said that space-time AND matter were required. My initial point is that the matter is not required. Further, the presence of matter and energy is what creates space-time. I'm not sure whether energy allow can be said to do this, but where there is energy, there can be matter.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by 1.61803, posted 03-27-2014 1:49 PM 1.61803 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by 1.61803, posted 03-27-2014 2:10 PM NoNukes has replied
 Message 106 by AZPaul3, posted 03-27-2014 4:28 PM NoNukes has replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1503 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 105 of 301 (723193)
03-27-2014 2:10 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by NoNukes
03-27-2014 1:58 PM


Re: You haven't said much here...
Thanks for the explaination. I appreciate and will read your link.
So getting back to the original question then.
Do you know if the fundalmental forces existed in the absence of spacetime?
Does scientist know if gravity exists in a region that contains neither energy or matter?
regards,

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by NoNukes, posted 03-27-2014 1:58 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by NoNukes, posted 03-27-2014 5:43 PM 1.61803 has not replied

  
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