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Author Topic:   Homosexuality and Evo, Creo, and ID
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 187 of 1309 (723099)
03-26-2014 4:04 PM
Reply to: Message 186 by New Cat's Eye
03-26-2014 3:55 PM


Re: Why are choices fair game?
All of which I consider to be taking punishment. One way or another if we want to stand for our Biblical beliefs we'll have to take some kind of punishment.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-26-2014 3:55 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 188 by AZPaul3, posted 03-26-2014 4:23 PM Faith has replied
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 Message 191 by Taq, posted 03-26-2014 4:36 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 194 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-26-2014 4:54 PM Faith has replied
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 198 of 1309 (723127)
03-27-2014 2:57 AM
Reply to: Message 188 by AZPaul3
03-26-2014 4:23 PM


Re: Why are choices fair game?
christians could try to play nice with society.
Funny, Christianity was the basis of western society since the Reformation at least, up until very recently.
However, now that we're living in a pagan society we do our best to keep peace with it.
This is possible unless society takes an aggressive stand against our beliefs, as for instance happened in ancient Rome when they demanded that Christians worship Caesar and branded Christians "atheists" for refusing to worship the Roman pantheon of gods. As also happened throughout the Middle Ages in Europe when the Roman Church demanded that Bible believers give up the Bible and affirm the doctrine of transubstantiation. In the first case dissenting Christians were turned into torches to light Nero's gardens, and fed to the lions in the stadium and so on. In the second they were hunted and killed, tortured by an amazing variety of interestingly diabolical methods, burned at the stake and whatnot.
So, sure, if we are allowed to live peaceably we will live peaceably. But if society insists that we do things that violate our Biblical understanding, we'll have to take whatever punishment society requires of us.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by AZPaul3, posted 03-26-2014 4:23 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 206 by AZPaul3, posted 03-27-2014 6:59 AM Faith has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 199 of 1309 (723129)
03-27-2014 3:17 AM
Reply to: Message 193 by subbie
03-26-2014 4:53 PM


Re: Why are choices fair game?
Just like Christians of the past had to adjust to societal acceptance of interracial marriage, ending slavery, women voting ...
Ah well. Interracial marriage is not opposed by Christian doctrine. Individual Christians opposing it are not acting on Christian doctrine but from their fallen minds.
Slavery was opposed BY Christians even if again some individual Christians rationalized it, not having freed their minds from the mentality of the pagan world. Christian DOCTRINE led them to oppose it while it is still practiced throughout the world in nonChristian societies.
Also, Christ liberated women from their oppressed condition in Jewish society and eventually, in the west at least, from the universal oppression in all societies that is the legacy of the Fall, by treating women with respect. Over time it was Christ's acceptance of women that led to women's rights in western societies, while again, women remained oppressed all over the nonChristian world and still are in many parts of it.
Being accused of these things as if they were a matter of Christian doctrine when it was Christian doctrine that was the only source of opposition to them is somewhat like being accused of atheism by the Romans. OUR society seems to be run by false propaganda these days, having lost any sense of history.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 200 of 1309 (723130)
03-27-2014 3:24 AM
Reply to: Message 194 by New Cat's Eye
03-26-2014 4:54 PM


Re: Why are choices fair game?
Not that you care, but I'm not "whining" or even objecting, I'm stating simple facts in a completely objective manner, in the hope of correcting some misperceptions. Of course I know the effort is futile but we try.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-26-2014 4:54 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 203 of 1309 (723140)
03-27-2014 6:21 AM
Reply to: Message 201 by Larni
03-27-2014 5:46 AM


My mum is gay. Always was. Period.
Even without knowing the context, thinking I don't know that gay people have children is really bizarre.
But here's the context again, or at least AZPaul's attempt to sort it out in Mesage 122 '
Posts previous to that one might also be informative. ABE Especially the ones where I'm reduced to screaming "idiots idiots idiots" because everybody is ignoring the context.
AZPaul is also good in 46 and 54 and 79.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by Larni, posted 03-27-2014 5:46 AM Larni has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 205 of 1309 (723142)
03-27-2014 6:32 AM
Reply to: Message 204 by frako
03-27-2014 6:31 AM


Re: Why are choices fair game?
Believe it or not, all that fulminating rhetoric doesn't contradict a thing I said except the part about reason and secularity being the push for the changes which is utterly stupidly historically blind.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 207 of 1309 (723146)
03-27-2014 7:44 AM
Reply to: Message 206 by AZPaul3
03-27-2014 6:59 AM


Re: Why are choices fair game?
Rather off target on all of that AZ, but I'm sure you aren't going to see it.
If you've got a huge scimitar at my neck and tell me I won't lose my head if I just say that homosexuality isn't a sin and it's right for gays to marry I'll forfeit my head.
Society insists we, which means you, treat all members of this community with at least a minimum level of respect.
In my opinion no Christian here has expressed the slightest disrespect to homosexuals.
That means stopping the hate rhetoric and stopping the push to dictate your creeds in the schools and through government onto the rest of a people that resist your dictatorship and do not believe as you do.
In my opinion no Christian here has expressed anything remotely along the lines of "hate rhetoric" etc. Of course this WAS once a Christian nation and the public school curriculum was originally based on the Bible and the Westminster Catechism, and all the colonies had Christian standards built into their government and public policy and prayer was given at the opening and closing of public meetings and in the schools and so on and so forth. So in fact what has happened is that YOUR TEAM has imposed YOUR VIEWS on this once-Christian nation and we're just left protesting the coup that TOOK AWAY the Christian standards. But of course that's all under the bridge now, it's done and that's that so you feel free to revile and excoriate us for not sharing YOUR views.
I know that this is hard for christians. For so many centuries you have been the masters of thought control ruling every facet of society as you deemed desirable.
"Thought control." My my, you do love YOUR rhetoric, don't you? Kind of reminds me of some of the stuff they said against the Jews to justify getting rid of them. If they're characterized as evil then of course they are to be eliminated. Makes sense.
You have come to expect to exercise this power over all peoples and organs of society as your god given right destroying all opposition in the most brutal ways. Those days are no longer.
Secular society (which does not mean a non- or anti-religious society, but where hindu, jew, moslem, atheist, christian, peagan and all others share equally and come to joint accommodation) has determined minimum standards of conduct in the marketplace and in public in general. This now replaces your vaunted christian theocracy.
Where do you get this stuff? You know what's going to happen now that you're rid of us (and you ARE essentially rid of us, you've won, congratulations and all that) you MAY find out that some of the other religions you are giving free rein -- because you think all religion is the same, boy is that a delusion -- revive their own wars with each other here in the west which still go on in other parts of the world, Hindus attacking Muslims and vice versa and both attacking Christians (The Christians normally don't fight back). Muslims will eventually have the power to reestablish their code that gives them the right to execute wives and daughters for a breach of the family honor, and I wouldn't be at all surprised if the Inquisition gets reinstated as well. But these are things you can't possibly understand from your very odd position of confusion and historical blindness.
Because of mainly christian opposition some classes of people must be declared protected by law in order for them to attain their minimum rights in society. Over vehement christian opposition, often violent, homosexuals are now becoming a class requiring such protections of the law.
Uh huh, I know, which means that any Christian who dares call it sin or won't bake a wedding cake for a gay wedding, is likely to find himself the victim of a violent version of your hate rhetoric against us. Your words are scathing, AZ, but oddly you say WE are the ones with the "hate rhetoric?" Wow.
We, The People, are making this determination as is our right.
Right, a "we" that doesn't include any of "us" of course as you've defined us as the hated class.
In your churches and homes your bigotry is free to flourish. In public business, in public education, in popular governance, though you can speak it, write it and show it on signs, direct actions against others by your bigotry are no longer acceptable.
And by "direct actions" you mean calling sin sin and refusing to bake a wedding cake for a gay wedding I gather, I can't think of anything else off the top of my head. And "no longer acceptable" means what, we beg on the streets, we get spat on, we get beheaded? Pastors who preach that part of the Bible get thrown in jail? It's already happened though it hasn't yet stuck. But it will. What would you recommend to put us in our place and out of your offended sight?
I would think that for a christian your standard of conduct would be far above the social minimum. No "you're going to burn in hell for eternity", no "I won't serve you because you're a queer" and no trying to brow beat, scare and threaten people into conversion.
Oddly enough I haven't seen any such things as you describe here with your inflated rhetoric. I wonder if you're hallucinating out of your depths of hatred for us.
I thought leading by love, tolerance and respect, leading by example, were supposed to be the christian things to do. For a lot of christian cults this is, apparently, not the case.
Pretending there is no such thing as sin is not love; pretending there is no such thing as God's judgment for sin is not love; pretending that there is no such thing as Hell is not love; pretending that sinners can go on sinning without having to worry about any of that, which lulls people to sleep on the edge of the abyss when they need to be warned instead, is not love.
Just curious: Have you ever read Toqueville? ANY history?
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by AZPaul3, posted 03-27-2014 6:59 AM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 208 by vimesey, posted 03-27-2014 8:42 AM Faith has replied
 Message 216 by Taq, posted 03-27-2014 11:09 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 225 by AZPaul3, posted 03-27-2014 3:57 PM Faith has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 209 of 1309 (723155)
03-27-2014 8:51 AM
Reply to: Message 208 by vimesey
03-27-2014 8:42 AM


Re: Why are choices fair game?
Pretending there is no such thing as sin is not love; pretending there is no such thing as God's judgment for sin is not love; pretending that there is no such thing as Hell is not love; pretending that sinners can go on sinning without having to worry about any of that, which lulls people to sleep on the edge of the abyss when they need to be warned instead, is not love.
But so much further removed from love than any of that, is treating someone as less than you, because they are different from you.
I have never said nor implied nor thought nor felt that anybody is less than I because different than I. I know I'm a sinner too, and probably worse in many ways than any homosexual. The idea that I'm looking down on them is just plain wrong. My entire focus is on upholding God's word. That's it. It's not a personal attitude of any sort. Sin is sin, we're all sinners, sin incurs judgment, and the Son of God became a man and died for any who would rather be saved than get punished for our sin. If you don't know you're a sinner then you won't know it's possible to be saved either. Homosexual sin is still just sin, it's nothing special, but society has decided that this of all sins is not to be regarded as sin and that those who call it sin are evil. It's all coming from you guys, forcing us to defend our views. If we weren't being told we have to regard it not as sin but as normal, or that we have to accept gay marriage, none of this would be happening which is provoking the most amazing hate speech I've ever heard, not FROM us but AGAINST us.
I can think of nothing more generous, loving, giving and caring than a Christian fundamentalist saying "you know what, I may disagree with what you do, I may think it's a sin, but it hurts no one else, it's your life, have a fabulous wedding, here's your cake." Now that would be love for your brother !
It just doesn't work that way. We're getting set up as targets, that's what this is all about.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by vimesey, posted 03-27-2014 8:42 AM vimesey has replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 210 of 1309 (723157)
03-27-2014 8:58 AM


And ya know what. I think it's finally hit me just how deeply hated I am here, I mean the rhetoric that has been coming against me is like sheer pure hate. Funny it took so long for that to get through to me. In any case I finally get the message. Time to leave.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 253 of 1309 (726946)
05-14-2014 4:44 AM
Reply to: Message 251 by Minnemooseus
05-14-2014 1:32 AM


Re: Courts strike down anti-gay maraige in Arkansas and Idaho
This is truly insane, all this Gay Rights stuff you are all so thrilled to see happening. It's as if you've all lost your minds, your perspective on the meaning of freedom of speech and all the rest of it. Absolutely amazing.
A few posts above Dr A is mocking the plight of Christian business owners who have been targeted by Gay Rights advocates to punish them for refusing to provide services that would imply approval of gay marriage, which would violate their consciences. As usual he also twists the context to imply that Christians wouldn't serve homosexuals at all but this is false and has been shown over and over to be false. There is no reason a Christian would not provide ordinary services to homosexuals or anybody else under normal circumstances, it is strictly gay marriage they refuse to validate.
And above that onifre does a very similar sort of mockery, and oh just look at the approval rating these fascistic opinions get! Sure is looking to me like America is now about up to the 30s in our Nazi/fascist growth trajectory.
There is no problem with an ordinary birthday cake, but there is a problem with a specially ordered cake in honor of gay marriage, which is a clear violation of Biblical standards. Homosexuality is a sin, it is not a race or a class of people, it's a sin and an aberration, and gay marriage is a double sin because marriage is a God-given ordinance that is violated by its extension to homosexuals.
Likewise with the services of a Christian photographer. There should be no problem with taking photographs of a birthday party, but there is a problem with taking photographs of a gay wedding.
Clearly there is no reason for the gays to require Christians to provide these services, there are plenty of business owners that would do them without suffering a violation of their conscience, but obviously the Christians are being targeted to be punished. This is a specifically ANTI-Christian movement, it has no other purpose.
Legalizing gay marriage in the courts is all of the same objective. This is an anti-Christian movement. Homosexuals have always been free to make their own unions however they want to, but making a law demanding that their unions be recognized by the state as legal is nothing but a way of forcing an unwelcome anti-Christian standard on Christians.
Here's some perspective: If a Nazi went into a bakery and asked for a specially made cake for a celebration with an inscription saying White Supremacy Uber Alles or some such, MOST bakery owners would refuse to make it and none of you would be pleased with the Nazis taking them to court to require them to make the cake. But you think it's right to do that to a Christian baker who refuses to make a wedding cake for a gay wedding.
You would not side with a provocateur who wanted to sue a Jewish deli for refusing to make him a ham sandwich.
In fact, reverse the situation: You would not side with the Phelps people if they wanted to sue a lesbian photographer for refusing to take photos of an anti-gay rally.
But it thrills your black little hearts if a gay couple set up a Christian business to be fined for refusing to celebrate their wedding.
Because you don't care about American freedoms, you want to see Christians punished, although originally our American freedoms were aimed at protecting Christians.
So the more laws there are that force Christians into a corner, into having to pay fines because of your fascist laws -- which did happen to the bakery so frequently exampled here -- even perhaps get put in prison because of your fascist laws, the happier you are. And you don't even know you're fascists, bullies and tyrants who are violating the very heart of American freedoms by forcing your insanely tyrannical laws on Christians.
Homosexuality is sin according to the Bible. Homosexuals are specifically identified in the Bible as not inheriting the Kingdom of God. They need to be warned for their own sake, especially if they have any idea whatever that they are Christians, as many absurdly and delusionally do. But no, such laws deny us the right to warn them away from an eternal misery. This is insanity.
Homosexuals are a danger to themselves and society too, as the AIDS epidemic, which has not gone away, started with sodomy in the public baths of San Francisco and continues with promiscuous sodomy. All that is swept under the carpet. Imagine that, a deadly disease just swept under the carpet for the sake of political correctness and whitewashing an aberration that was always known to be an aberration, not just by Christians but by just about everybody once upon a time, until everybody lost their minds in the last few decades. This is insanity, this is practically the definition of insanity.
That doesn't mean gays aren't citizens who should be treated equally as citizens, but that does not include pretending it's normal, let alone even remotely consistent with Christianity, or legalizing gay marriage, which is insane.
So let's now watch you all trot out your most egregiously criminally insane fascistic tyrannical vicious anti-Christian anti-American language in response to this, twisting it all to make ME the villain of course.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 251 by Minnemooseus, posted 05-14-2014 1:32 AM Minnemooseus has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 260 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-14-2014 10:55 AM Faith has replied
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 255 of 1309 (726949)
05-14-2014 5:38 AM
Reply to: Message 254 by Heathen
05-14-2014 5:35 AM


Re: Courts strike down anti-gay maraige in Arkansas and Idaho
And here we go. Good morning Heathen.
Salvation is by REPENTANCE and faith. You cannot be a PRACTICING sinner and be saved. You need to read all that I wrote on that subject.
You'd be happy if a bakery discriminated against a white supremacist who wanted a cake to celebrate white supremacy. These things are a matter of conscience, but you want to put the Christian conscience in fascist chains.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by Heathen, posted 05-14-2014 5:35 AM Heathen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 258 by Heathen, posted 05-14-2014 9:04 AM Faith has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 259 of 1309 (726977)
05-14-2014 10:17 AM
Reply to: Message 258 by Heathen
05-14-2014 9:04 AM


Re: Courts strike down anti-gay maraige in Arkansas and Idaho
Practicing sinner means habitual sinner, one who persists in sin, will not give it up, will not repent of it, thinks God will accept him nevertheless but scripture says no, practicing habitual sinners are not saved, and it specifically names homosexuality.
Christians sincerely repent of sin, though they nevertheless do sin, are overcome by temptation at times, but they don't want to sin, don't do it habitually, do it inadvertently, perhaps don't understand yet that something is sinful and so on.
A homosexual has to repent of homosexual practice, remove temptation from his or her life; may nevertheless struggle with that inclination and find himself giving in to it, but with regret and contrition and attempts to reform, asking the Lord's forgiveness and His help to overcome temptation. That's the way the Christian life is normally lived by all Christians.
Scripture is clear about these distinctions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by Heathen, posted 05-14-2014 9:04 AM Heathen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 268 by Heathen, posted 05-15-2014 2:45 AM Faith has replied
 Message 274 by Taq, posted 05-15-2014 11:36 AM Faith has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 261 of 1309 (726984)
05-14-2014 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 260 by Dr Adequate
05-14-2014 10:55 AM


Re: Courts strike down anti-gay maraige in Arkansas and Idaho
Your comparisons and logic-chopping analogies are false as I already said in what I wrote. Ridiculous and in fact evil. Perhaps I'll come back and explain more later.
I can't read your link, the print is faint and the background too white for my eyes.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 260 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-14-2014 10:55 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 262 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-14-2014 1:01 PM Faith has not replied
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 264 of 1309 (727021)
05-14-2014 7:17 PM
Reply to: Message 263 by Dr Adequate
05-14-2014 1:37 PM


Re: Courts strike down anti-gay maraige in Arkansas and Idaho
Your link is a proposed bill? That supposedly defends my side of this argument or something like that? What does that prove? That somebody agrees with me? If it's not a law but only a bill, so what?
The point I was making was that Christian businesses HAVE BEEN persecuted, had to pay a fine, for refusing to offer services that would have given tacit approval to gay marriage, which they strongly oppose on biblical grounds. That's an actual law that has been acted on. It certainly IS a "blow against my religious freedom" when I am subject to fascistic legal punishment for taking such a stand.
So what's your point now?
Different religious organizations not recognizing marriages performed by other religious organizations also has nothing to do with the points at issue here that I can see, except that the government really shouldn't have anything to do with marriage anyway. It should be left to the religious organizations who can't force their beliefs on other people as government can and does.
I understand that the government got involved in marriage in the first place in an effort to prohibit interracial marriages back in the 19th century. Now it makes laws that persecute people for objecting to gay marriage. Always on the wrong side of every issue and it's none of their business anyway. Now gay rights activists, as I said, are clearly out to persecute Christians, nobody else, just those who stand on the Bible which declares homosexuality a sin, and now the government is putting its weight behind that evil undertaking against our first amendment rights.
I don't see that you've addressed any of these points in your posts.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-14-2014 1:37 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 265 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-14-2014 7:34 PM Faith has replied
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 266 of 1309 (727025)
05-14-2014 7:54 PM
Reply to: Message 265 by Dr Adequate
05-14-2014 7:34 PM


Re: Courts strike down anti-gay maraige in Arkansas and Idaho
Or you could explain where I missed your point. It shouldn't take more than a minute or two.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 265 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-14-2014 7:34 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 267 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-14-2014 8:12 PM Faith has replied

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