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Author Topic:   Homosexuality and Evo, Creo, and ID
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(3)
Message 175 of 1309 (723037)
03-26-2014 1:21 AM
Reply to: Message 117 by lokiare
03-25-2014 8:14 PM


Re: Why are choices fair game?
To even be able to say my view is bigoted you have to prove that homosexuality is somehow natural and normal, that I am insulting or denigrating it (rather than just not like it), and that I am somehow persecuting it. ...
Nope, all I need to do is look at how you talk about homosexuality. The words you use and the intent of your posts show that you think homosexuality is unnatural and needs to be cured, and that is bigoted.
... I would no more force someone to watch a romantic comedy than I want to be forced to watch homosexual behavior in every tv show or movie I see.
Curiously I don't have that problem. Perhaps your choice of movies and tv shows points to what you want to see ...
So far you haven't put forth a single fact to back up your viewpoint yet. Hopefully your next response will be a fact filled one that at least attempts to refute what I've posted. Otherwise I may have to ignore your posts in favor of those that actually want to be productive.
Ah the "poisoning the well" fallacy.
Animals have homosexual individuals, animals are by definition natural, so it is natural for homosexual individuals to exist.
That is all the facts I need, however I also note that I have provided evidence that your claims of "cures" are questionable at best, anecdotal, and not scientific.
Meanwhile your assertions have been challenged, your "evidence" is shown to be more hyperbole than fact based, and your views are biased so you cherry pick what you want the evidence to show and don't fact check it.
I also note that this pretty well repudiates the whole concept:
Report of the American Psychological Association Task Force on Appropriate Therapeutic Responses
to Sexual Orientation
I suggest you read it.
quote:
Abstract
The American Psychological Association Task Force on Appropriate Therapeutic Responses to Sexual Orientation conducted a systematic review of the peer-reviewed journal literature on sexual orientation change efforts (SOCE) and concluded that efforts to change sexual orientation are unlikely to be successful and involve some risk of harm, contrary to the claims of SOCE practitioners and advocates. Even though the research and clinical literature demonstrate that same-sex sexual and romantic attractions, feelings, and behaviors are normal and positive variations of human sexuality, regardless of sexual orientation identity, the task force concluded that the population that undergoes SOCE tends to have strongly conservative religious views that lead them to seek to change their sexual orientation. Thus, the appropriate application of affirmative therapeutic interventions for those who seek SOCE involves therapist acceptance, support, and understanding of clients and the facilitation of clients’ active coping, social support, and identity exploration and development, without imposing a specific sexual orientation identity outcome.
It seems they advocate therapy to make homosexual people become comfortable with who they are ... and that efforts to change orientation are failures and can cause more harm than good.
So it seems to me that less harm is done to society by accepting homosexual people as equals than it is to discriminate and denigrate them.
The assumption here is that me or anyone else has tried to force others to stop liking homosexuality. I have nothing but love for homosexuals, however it has nothing to do with their homosexuality. It has to do with their humanity. Until I've been shown some reason to change my mind, I'm sticking with the idea that homosexuality is a deviation from a normal process caused by environmental factors backed up by chemical addiction in the brain (caused by climaxes being rewarded with positive endorphins)
Yes, the Christian love that is really hate.
When I lived in Mississippi we had neighbors that said they "love blacks, love them to death, but don't want them moving into their neighborhood" ... so you'll forgive me for thinking your claim to "have nothing but love for homosexuals" while crusading to have them all undergo some voodoo treatment to "cure" them is nothing but smoke-screen for your bigotry.
You are known by your acts not your words eh?
If you truly love someone you let them live the way they want to live.
Look at the rules for this very forum. They have a clause that says moderators can do anything they want whether or not you are violating the rules. Is that being bigoted?
No. When it is applied with discrimination against certain people for what they are rather than for how they behave then it is discrimination.
And you can compare how much this is done on this forum to any "Christian" forum moderation and see if you can find more discrimination here -- it's a challenge.
If a person is disruptive of debate it serves the purpose of the forum to ban such people. That is not discrimination or bigotry but a response to bad behavior.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by lokiare, posted 03-25-2014 8:14 PM lokiare has not replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 179 of 1309 (723052)
03-26-2014 7:58 AM
Reply to: Message 143 by lokiare
03-25-2014 9:26 PM


Re: Research Studies
I've already conceded this argument with the condition that it is found that homosexuality is somehow genetic which has not been provided anywhere.
Studies have not shown there is no connection, just that they have not as yet found a direct genetic link.
So just to be clear, there can be a genetic component and genes can be passed by the brothers and sisters sharing common genes, a rather simple evolutionary explanation that uses actual evolutionary processes, and you were wrong about natural selection necessarily eliminating it. Education has begun.
In herd animals and pack animals the males fight to see if they can become the dominant one and only the best becomes the dominant one. It isn't that they don't try to breed, its that the dominant one keeps them from breeding by interruption, injury, or by eating the offspring. So this argument is invalid as they all try to breed, but fail.
You miss the point. The point is that there are non-breeding members of the species and they do not pass on their genes, yet they keep recurring. This shows that evolution does involve non-breeding individuals. With the wolf pack you have the additional factor of the other pack members benefiting the pack and pups survival, just like the gay uncle and lesbian aunt. Thus this is not a hypothetical discussion of benefits but an observed one.
Bees are only fertilized once and then produce clones for the rest of their life. Bee DNA doesn't vary very much. Also there is a huge difference between social insects (who are greatly influenced by chemicals to the point of being stolen by other colonies, in fact there is an ant that steals larvae to populate itself) and social animals. I have yet to see a homosexual bee or ant.
If they are fertilized they are not clones. The point again is that there are non-breeding individuals that benefit the survival of the species, another observed instance that shows that a gay uncle or lesbian aunt can benefit sibling offspring and lead to their shared genes being passed on to the next generation.
See above I addressed all your concerns. The argument stands.
No, the "above arguments" involved evolution and your poor understanding of the mechanisms involved for inheritance of genes carried by non-breeding individuals within a breeding population.
This was your argument in the previous linked post:
Message 85: ... There is no genetic advantage to this that wouldn't be eclipsed by a heterosexual creature that helps take care of relatives young as well as its own. Thus being more likely to spread their genetic code to the next generation.
This has been shown to be false, so no, the argument does not stand.
See above I addressed all your concerns. ...
This is a cop-out and disingenuous when in fact you have not answer this previously. Curiously I find it is a common refuge for people with weak arguments, as they like to pretend that their basis is solid. You may want to look up cognitive dissonance.

we are limited in our ability to understand
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Rebel American Zen Deist
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by lokiare, posted 03-25-2014 9:26 PM lokiare has not replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(2)
Message 189 of 1309 (723105)
03-26-2014 4:28 PM
Reply to: Message 187 by Faith
03-26-2014 4:04 PM


Re: Why are choices fair game?
All of which I consider to be taking punishment. One way or another if we want to stand for our Biblical beliefs we'll have to take some kind of punishment.
And part of living in America and having freedom of beliefs is that others are just as free to disagree with you and to act on their beliefs as long as there is no harm.
When you discriminate, denigrate and demonize certain people because of your beliefs you cause harm. It doesn't matter what you use as a basis for such discriminatory behavior, it causes harm.
Now you may argue that the existence of such people cause you harm, but they are not acting with intent to harm while you are. That is where it crosses the line of acceptable behavior in a free society.
There is no secular purpose to such discrimination, so the only justification is in specific personal beliefs.
That is not enough to justify discrimination in a free society: it is not your place to pass judgment on people based on beliefs.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 195 of 1309 (723118)
03-26-2014 5:32 PM
Reply to: Message 193 by subbie
03-26-2014 4:53 PM


Re: Why are choices fair game?
Just like Christians of the past had to adjust to societal acceptance of interracial marriage, ending slavery, women voting ...
Women owning property, running businesses, becoming engineers and doctors ...
Sadly we still have the Equal Pay Act sitting in congress because the house won't put it up for vote ... some recalcitrant misogynistic bigotry still going on (just like there is still some race bigotry going on, especially in red states and voter suppression).

we are limited in our ability to understand
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by subbie, posted 03-26-2014 4:53 PM subbie has seen this message but not replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 214 of 1309 (723164)
03-27-2014 10:21 AM
Reply to: Message 210 by Faith
03-27-2014 8:58 AM


the martyr complex again
And ya know what. I think it's finally hit me just how deeply hated I am here, I mean the rhetoric that has been coming against me is like sheer pure hate. Funny it took so long for that to get through to me. In any case I finally get the message. Time to leave.
Paul McCartney
quote:
And in the end
The love you take
Is equal to the love
You make.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by Faith, posted 03-27-2014 8:58 AM Faith has not replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(2)
Message 229 of 1309 (723290)
03-28-2014 3:08 PM
Reply to: Message 227 by lokiare
03-28-2014 2:41 PM


Again, lengthy copy and pastes with little comment are not arguments.
You do have to be more careful though:
Older Siblings are more likely to become homosexual (not a genetic trait):
That is not what the study reference says at all, it says that younger brothers are more likely to be (not become) homosexual when there are a number of older brothers.
Birth order trend would indicate changing hormonal balance during development.
First studies show no linkage from the xq28 alleles:
But doesn't rule out any other linkage/s. In particular I expect the genetic basis for attraction to be in a different location than the genetic basis for sex determination, and that is where I would expect to find a "gay" gene. This study does not address that issue.
Here they suggest that the birth month combined with a birth defect could cause female homosexuality:
quote:
... In two smaller studies, north-American and other northern-hemisphere born lesbians showed the same strong-hitter birth seasonality while gay men showed the opposite seasonality. The sexual dimorphism-critical 4th-fetal-month testosterone surge coincides with the summer-solstice in early-November births and the winter-solstice in early-May births. These coincidences are discussed and a "melatonin mechanism" ...
That is not a birth defect but again an hormonal effect on development.
This article proposes making a new definition of 'mental disorder' and is deemed a failure if it somehow includes homosexuality, despite homosexuality being removed from the 'mental disorder' list for political rather than scientific reasons. This is known as the "Suppressed Correlative" Fallacy. Rather than carefully defining what a 'mental disorder' is and seeing what falls under that category, they instead use a faulty test to see if they've arrived at the definition. Excluding the ability to define homosexuality as a 'mental disorder' regardless if it is one or not.
Nope, that is them recognizing that it is not a mental disorder and that misclassification on the basis of discrimination or socio-political deviance had occurred before then.
I lose interest in pursuing others of your quotes seeing as you are batting zero so far: it appears you see things in these articles that are in your beliefs rather than in the articles ... it's called confirmation bias and it is a logical fallacy.
[abe]Make that four out of four ...
This study shows that same-sex parents increase maltreatment of children and that there is a link between maltreatment of children and homosexuality:
Does maltreatment in childhood affect sexual orientation in adulthood? - PubMed
quote:
... but studies directly assessing the association between these diverse types of maltreatment and sexuality cannot disentangle the causal direction because the sequencing of maltreatment and emerging sexuality is difficult to ascertain. Nascent same-sex orientation may increase risk of maltreatment; alternatively, maltreatment may shape sexual orientation. Our study used instrumental variable models based on family characteristics that predict maltreatment but are not plausibly influenced by sexual orientation (e.g., having a stepparent) as natural experiments to investigate whether maltreatment might increase the likelihood of same-sex sexuality in a nationally representative sample (n = 34,653). In instrumental variable models, history of sexual abuse predicted increased prevalence of same-sex attraction by 2.0 percentage points [95 % confidence interval (CI) = 1.4-2.5], any same-sex partners by 1.4 percentage points (95 % CI = 1.0-1.9), and same-sex identity by 0.7 percentage points (95 % CI = 0.4-0.9). ...
That is once again NOT what the study says. The study says that maltreatment has roughly a 2% correlation with children being being homosexual and with forming same-sex relationships, and that there is no telling if the abuse was due to the child being homosexual. These results are also very near to the amount of error in the study, so it might just be noise or due to some other cause.[/abe]
Let's cut to the chase: what is wrong with letting people have different sexual orientations as long as they are lawful, respectful adults that treat you no different because of your sexual orientation?
Again, I ask you to demonstrate what bad effect is caused by anyone being homosexual or lesbian beyond that you don't like because of your biased views on the matter -- what harm does it do to society?
My answer is none.
Can you refute that?
What are you so afraid of in accepting that sexual orientation happens, regardless of cause?
Edited by RAZD, : added

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 227 by lokiare, posted 03-28-2014 2:41 PM lokiare has not replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 237 of 1309 (723348)
03-30-2014 6:11 PM
Reply to: Message 227 by lokiare
03-28-2014 2:41 PM


Homophobia can be cured ...
Curiously, I binged therapy for homophobia and got several results:
As with any internet search you need to sort out the fact from the fiction. For instance ... the onion article is fantasy (certainly sounds like someone's fantasy ... ):
Revolutionary New Homophobia Immersion Therapy Involves Lowering Patient Into Tank Of Gays
quote:
BOSTONDuring a widely publicized press conference at the Boston University School of Medicine Friday, researchers announced a breakthrough new technique that cures homophobia by immersing patients in a large glass tank overflowing with gays. "Rather than avoid one's fear of homosexual men, we believe it's crucial to face it head on," behavioral psychologist Dr. Dolph Kleineman told reporters, explaining how homophobic subjects are hooked up to a harness and lowered into a room containing bare-chested men dancing suggestively to the latest club hits, kissing, and feeding one another strawberries. "So far the treatment has been successful, with early test subjects being able to go out into the real world and see a gay couple hold hands without making a bigoted remark." When asked if there was a risk of subjects getting stuck in the tank of writhing men, Kleineman said the gays would be so oiled up that patients would have no trouble slipping in and out.
a little bit of ... ah shall we say ... tongue in cheek eh?
But (happily) there really are several bonafide therapies for homophobia.
First one should determine if phobia is involved -- there are many kinds of phobias and the all share some characteristics -- and determine if they are homophobic:
Symptoms
quote:
Symptoms
  • Feelings of anxiety or discomfort when exposed to homosexuals or when discussing issues involving homosexuality
  • Critical or hostile behaviors directed toward homosexuals or their interests
  • An espoused belief that homosexuals:
    • are sick, evil, or unnatural
    • are "choosing" to be different than they should be
    • are motivated by lust rather than love in forming their relationships
    • are less worthy of recognition and protection of their relationships than are heterosexuals

Notice how these symptoms mirror some of your comments ...
Or a more extensive list:
HOMOPHOBIA Symptoms: Friends of the Fear
quote:
Every case of homophobia is a little different.
Why? Because the core of the problem — the patterns of thinking, the images, movies, sounds and dialog that are internally associated with homosexuality — are different in each person.
But while the ‘internal representations’ as they are called are different from person to person there are a number of symptoms which are common to many homophobes:
  • A feeling of uncontrollable anxiety when you think about or are exposed to homosexuality
  • The feeling that you must do everything possible to avoid homosexuality
  • The inability to function normally because of your anxiety
  • Often, the knowledge that your fears are unreasonable or exaggerated but feeling powerless to control them
Homophobic symptoms can be mental, emotional and physical. The anxiety and fear can go from mild feelings of apprehension to a full-blown panic attack.
Mental Symptoms
  • Obsessive Thoughts
  • Difficulty thinking about anything other than the fear
  • Really bad images and/or movies of homosexuality
  • Feelings of unreality or of being detached from yourself
  • Fear of losing control or going crazy
  • Fear of fainting
Emotional Symptoms:
  • Anticipatory Anxiety: Persistent worrying about upcoming events that involve homosexuality
  • Terror: A persistent and overwhelming fear of the same
  • Desire to Flee: An intense instinct to leave the situation (which is tough when its purely in the mind)
  • (and usually later), Anger, Sadness, Fear, Hurt & Guilt
Physical Symptoms:
  • Dizziness, shaking, palpitations.
  • Shortness of breath or smothering sensation
  • Palpitations, pounding heart, or accelerated heart rate
  • Chest pain or discomfort
  • Trembling or shaking
  • Feeling of choking
  • Sweating
  • Nausea or stomach distress
  • Feeling unsteady, dizzy, lightheaded, or faint
  • Numbness or tingling sensations
  • Hot or cold flashes

Once you have determined that phobia is involved, then one can look into what the causes of the particular homophobia are, and if they apply, as this helps determine the appropriate therapy:
On Causes of Homophobia
quote:
Primary
Repressed feelings of same-sex attraction
Human sexuality is not binary. It is a fluid continuum all the way from completely-homosexual to completely-heterosexual.
Many individuals in the middle of the spectrum experience some degree of same-sex longing and attraction, but the majority are constrained from acting on these feelings due to the social consequences they believe would accompany a perception that they are anything other than completely-straight.
This ongoing conflict makes these individuals highly prone to suffer from homophobia and to engage in homophobic compensating behaviors in order to mask their true feelings.
Secondary
Supposed scriptural prohibitions of homosexual acts
Individuals who possess strong religious beliefs but who lack the capacity or inclination for critical independent judgment can frequently be induced to homophobia by (already homophobic) leaders who cite obscure scriptural verses which they interpret to prohibit homosexual acts.
The demonization of homosexuals
Gays and lesbians have long been used by homophobic religious and political leaders as convenient foils for wedge politics and the politics of distraction. The idea, for example, that there is a "homosexual agenda" that if not actively-countered will somehow lead to the decline of civilization has been widely-used to rally right-wing voters.
Note that secondary causes are learned behavior, and thus they should be most amenable to treatment by learning the truth about homosexuality within the human spectrum of sexual behavior.
So now lets look at the various treatments:
Homophobia Treatment
quote:
Primary Infections
Homophobia caused by repressed same-sex attraction:
Primary infections of homophobia (those caused by sufferer's repression of homosexual feelings) can usually only be cured by either the individual coming to terms with their position on the sexual continuum or by changes in the social pressures that caused them to adopt the homophobic compensating behavior as a coping strategy in the first place.
Secondary Infections
The single most effective treatment for seconday infections of homophobia is for the sufferer to engage in open and honest conversation with actual homosexuals. Such conversations should include: how and when they knew they were gay, why they can't just be straight like everyone else, and what exactly is on their gay agenda.
This treatment is usually counterproductive, however, in primary cases (those caused by repressed homosexual tendencies), since it may force the sufferer deeper into compensating behaviors in order to avoid detection by the gay person as not completely straight.
Homophobia based on supposed scriptural prohibitions of homosexual acts:
Homophobia based on supposed scriptural prohibitions can be easily remedied by critical questioning of both the appropriate linguistic translation of the texts and by analyses of their contexts (for example, the fact that each of these verses can be interpreted as prohibiting homosexual acts in the context of rape and/or prostiution and not in the context of loving and committed same-sex relationships). Also, the motivations of individuals who would cite them as critically important, although plucked from among a sea of other verses which are now universally ignored, should always be questioned (e.g., are they espousing these positions for political or economic gain or as a compensating behavior to mask their own repressed homosexual tendencies?).
Homophobia caused by the demonization of homosexuals:
Homophobia caused by the demonization of homosexuals is the least virulent type and will generally cure itself over time in the absence such messages. It can also be remedied quickly after gaining an enlightened awareness that the demonization tactic is being employed.
And another look at treatment and cure:
Homophobia Treatment & Cure
quote:
Treatment and Cure: Two Very Different Things
So treatment means trying to do something about it.
Cure means the problem is gone.
This page is about both.
Exposure Therapy
If you suspect that you have a phobia, start by talking with your doctor who can recommend a therapist. You’ll likely be treated with exposure therapy for your phobia, although your therapist may also recommend additional treatments.
Exposure therapy is a form of cognitive-behavioral therapy. It involves putting yourself into increasingly stressful scenarios involving your particular phobia and overcoming your fear with new learning.
Self-Help
Self-help really means do-it-yourself and could be anything from choosing a home study program to extreme exposure therapy. There’s no single self-help solution — but there is a philosphy we think is helpful: taking resposibility for your own cure, whatever method you choose.
Talk Therapy
If self-help techniques haven’t worked, talk to your GP. You may need professional help from a psychiatrist (a doctor who specializes in mental health conditions) or other therapist. For many people, the best treatment for phobias is behavioral therapy.
Behavioral Therapy
Behavioral therapy involves one-to-one sessions with a therapist trained in treating phobias. The principle of this approach involves exposure and a gradual desensitization to homophobia. During the sessions, you learn to tolerate the anxiety triggered by exposure with the help of relaxation techniques.
Cognitive Behavioral Therapy
For some people cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT) is an option. This involves exercises to alter the inappropriate patterns of thinking you have developed and the behavior that stems from them.
Medicines
Medicines are increasingly used to treat even mild cases. Any doctor can prescribe a range of medicines and drug options for fear of homosexuality (follow that link for our dedicated page).
The Bottom Line
There’s plenty of therapies out there, but few cures.
Remember a homophobia cure means eliminating homophobia so it now feels as if it was never there.
Bottom line is that treatment is available, so see if it helps.
Then we get to prevention of homophobia so that you can help stop it spreading:
Prevention of Homophobia:
quote:
Prevention
  • Understand that human sexuality is a continuum and that there are many people near the middle of the spectrum. Try to make people feel at ease by letting them know that you will accept and support them however they truly are.
  • Engage in social contact with actual homosexuals and ask them meaningful questions about their lives.
  • Refuse to be distracted from the central teachings of most religions (e.g., the golden rule) by leaders who justify their anti-gay positions by citing obscure verses but who fail to show equal concern for abiding by the surrounding verses.
  • Learn to recognize when the demonization tactic is being employed.

Learn
Heal
Live
ps - you can see many more sites on homophobic treatment at therapy for homophobia
Edited by RAZD, : reorganized and added
Edited by RAZD, : format
Edited by RAZD, : .
Edited by RAZD, : more

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 227 by lokiare, posted 03-28-2014 2:41 PM lokiare has not replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 243 of 1309 (723452)
04-01-2014 4:32 PM
Reply to: Message 240 by Raphael
04-01-2014 1:35 PM


If I remember correctly I believe Lokaire's OP contained a link with multiple sources confirming there is no biological evidence for homosexuality being genetic. ...
Nope, what they showed was that a genetic link had not been found, a rather important difference -- there could still be some genetic element that has not been found.
Personally I believe (and there is some evidence that backs this) it is something that occurs during fetal development, something due to environmental chemicals and hormones affecting the mother. This would be consistent with homosexuality in animals, while choice would not (unless you think a LOT of animals have the cognition ability similar to humans to make such a choice).
Such environmental\hormonal factors could extend into childhood, but my personal feeling is that it occurs during fetal development.
... Regardless, it seems silly to argue about whether or not sexual orientation is genetic or not.
Indeed, it is much more rational to accept it as natural (occurs in nature. other animals, not just human), and it is not detrimental, as far as I can see.
Regardless, and from a non religious side of things, my thoughts on the issue is that this country has been and is about equal rights, both for the individual AND the collective, and freedom for those who are oppressed. Equal rights for the oppressed (contextually here, homosexuals) is something Christians should fight for, as that is what Jesus fought for. Hopefully that means seeking, fighting, and supporting something better for those who feel oppressed. Which isn't always homosexuals nowadays, by the way.
Agreed, and it fits with the American heritage of upholding basic human rights.
For those that have problems with homosexuality there is treatment to resolve or cure their homophobia.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by Raphael, posted 04-01-2014 1:35 PM Raphael has not replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 250 of 1309 (723494)
04-02-2014 9:52 PM
Reply to: Message 249 by Dr Adequate
04-02-2014 8:22 PM


Re: Why are choices fair game?
You forgot the part where he wroe out the constitution ... or was that Mohamed?

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-02-2014 8:22 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 304 of 1309 (727325)
05-17-2014 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 303 by Faith
05-17-2014 11:41 AM


no "get out of jail free" card here
If you are charged and prosecuted for breaking a law, you are not being persecuted because you chose to break the law.
You are free to decide to break any law you wish, but you are responsible for the consequences of your behavior: you are choosing lawful punishment in lieu of abiding by the law.
Fully commited protesters understand this - you can see people making this choice protesting the XL pipeline for example.
Claiming religious belief is not a "get out of jail free" card.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 303 by Faith, posted 05-17-2014 11:41 AM Faith has not replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 358 of 1309 (727518)
05-18-2014 6:00 PM
Reply to: Message 354 by Faith
05-18-2014 3:39 PM


Re: You knew sinners bought cakes when you baked them.
This is being punished for having a Biblical viewpoint, utterly against the founding freedoms of this nation. ...
Stop posting blatant falsehoods Faith.
This nation was not founded on 'biblical viewpoints' but adamantly secular ones -- it was intentionally non-denominational secular principals because they KNEW that any religious views would become an abuse of views for others ----- they had seen it, experienced it, and found it distasteful\abhorent.
And this narrow-minded selfish view is what you want to impose here with your whining about gay people getting a wedding cake.
Show me where the Constitution mentions either "GOD" or "BIBLE" -- you can't because it IS NOT THERE.
Show me where the Declaration of Independence mentions "BIBLE" -- you can't because it IS NOT THERE.
Show me that the mention of "NATURE's GOD" means anything other than the DEIST GOD -- you can't because it IS NOT THERE.
And don't try to pawn off evidence of certain founding father's being Christian as anything OTHER than evidence that there were many views involved, some Christian, some Deist, some Jewish some, many, secular. Because you can't show that because SOME Christians were involved means more than that.
Get off your silly little pedestal and understand that the world includes MANY people of MANY different beliefs -- and the United States Of America is just as committed to those people and their beliefs as they are to yours.
Welcome them. Learn from them. Grow.
Get over yourself. The world is OLD, and until you understand this FACT your opinions will just hold you back from reality.
I say this for your good.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 354 by Faith, posted 05-18-2014 3:39 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 359 by NoNukes, posted 05-18-2014 6:50 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied
 Message 361 by Faith, posted 05-19-2014 1:05 AM RAZD has replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(3)
Message 394 of 1309 (727575)
05-19-2014 6:45 AM
Reply to: Message 361 by Faith
05-19-2014 1:05 AM


More Christian Pseudohistory Self Absolvements
Yes when the Federal government was formed 175 years after the original founding, a state church was rejected for the reasons you state, but even that was never intended to kick religion out of the nation as is so often said today. ...
It was intended that all beliefs would have equal standing. No favoritism for any sect or belief. In fact it is written in the Constitution that there shall be no religious test for office -- and that indeed is one of the original founding principles that is in need of revitalizing.
... They thought of this as a Christian nation ...
No. They thought of this as a nation where Christians and people of any other faith or belief were equally treated.
... Even the nonChristian Constitutional founders who were Deists and Unitarians, strongly affirmed the need for the nation to be steeped in specifically Christian morality. ...
Nope, this is pure bollhockey-puck shinola. Many are on record as deploring Christianity as bad for people and society -- for many of the same reasons it is bad for people and society today. Learn real history Faith, not the Christianized wannabe history.
WHO most persecuted the Native People to change their beliefs?
Do you know WHY Rhode Island became a separate colony from Massachusetts?
Do you know WHERE the oldest Synagogue Temple is in the United States?
Do you know HOW old it is?
[abe] Curiously this was on facebook this morning:
nuff said. [/abe]
Edited by RAZD, : added image

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 361 by Faith, posted 05-19-2014 1:05 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 401 by Faith, posted 05-20-2014 10:42 AM RAZD has replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 564 of 1309 (728113)
05-23-2014 10:36 PM
Reply to: Message 401 by Faith
05-20-2014 10:42 AM


Re: More Christian Pseudohistory Self Absolvements
Yes RAZD, you can find all those quotes too. Find the ones where they speak of the necessity of Christian morality for a good society. They're out there too.
Curiously, I do not need to look any further than the ones I posted, because they tell you that the nation was not founded as a christian nation.
It is a secular nation that happens to have a lot of christians.
If you were right, then the quotes I listed would not exist.
QED
Enjoy.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 401 by Faith, posted 05-20-2014 10:42 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 565 by Faith, posted 05-24-2014 1:08 AM RAZD has replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 569 of 1309 (728140)
05-24-2014 9:39 AM
Reply to: Message 565 by Faith
05-24-2014 1:08 AM


And More Christian Pseudohistory Self Absolvements - a good example
ABE: There are lots of collections of such quotes: here's one:
Now find them in the actual papers written by the actual people and not what appears to be fabrications of the Christian Pseudohistory ilk.
For instance Jefferson -- you quote
quote:
The Christian religion is the best religion that has ever been given to man - Thomas Jefferson, Jefferson Memorial -
Which is so at odds with his writings in general that I question the whole as being fabrications.
Doing a little basic research on this I found:
the "quote" attributed to Jefferson:
quote:
This quotation appeared in a handwritten manuscript by the Reverend Ethan Allen (1796-1879). The story was related to Allen by a Mr. Ingle, who claimed to have been told a story that Jefferson was walking to church services one Sunday,
"...with his large red prayer book under his arm when a friend querying him after their mutual good morning said which way are you walking Mr. Jefferson. To which he replied to Church Sir. You going to church Mr. J. You do not believe a word in it. Sir said Mr. J. No nation has ever yet existed or been governed without religion. Nor can be. The Christian religion is the best religion that has been given to man and I as chief Magistrate of this nation am bound to give it the sanction of my example. Good morning Sir."[2]
The story comes to us third-hand, and has not been confirmed by any references in Jefferson's papers or any other known sources. Its authenticity is questionable.
And then I looked at ALL the quotes on the Jefferson Memorial ... and could not find "Christian religion is the best religion that has been given to man" listed. Anywhere.
In other words you have a questionable quote from questionable sources running counter to other of his statements that are well documented, and one that is NOT in the location your list claims: a perfect example, in other words, of Christian Pseudohistory (self-serving falsehoods).
As such I have zero confidence in any of your quotes being accurate and honest.
Enjoy.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 565 by Faith, posted 05-24-2014 1:08 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 570 by Modulous, posted 05-24-2014 10:22 AM RAZD has seen this message but not replied
 Message 571 by Faith, posted 05-24-2014 11:13 AM RAZD has replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 584 of 1309 (728180)
05-24-2014 5:45 PM
Reply to: Message 571 by Faith
05-24-2014 11:13 AM


an untrustworty site of Christian pseudohistory
I'm getting tired of being let down by my sources. I've had in mind for a long time that I need to get my own index together of references that I can trust on every subject I talk about. Hope I have the energy to do that.
I can understand that feeling, nothing like being betrayed by other people's falsehoods.
I looked up the memorial and that one isn't there as you said, JUST THAT ONE mind you, but he has a lot of good things to say about religion nevertheless, speaks of "the holy author of our religion" which certainly shows a strong identification with Christianity ...
Curiously I saw them as a strong identification with the natural deist god, as discussed in the Declaration of Independence and in other writings of his. Personally I see it as leaving the door open for a number of interpretations,
Remember that Jefferson made his own Bible. He cut out all the supernatural references but clearly he liked what the Bible had to say otherwise, especially Jesus' teachings. So I don't find it unbelievable at all that he would say something like that.
Indeed, he considered Jesus as a man, with no supernatural aspect, and his teachings then are similar to those of Buddha and others.
In the end you found one line from one of the men quoted that you are making into a huge big deal, nothing from that whole list of other founders and quotes. Your claim that this amounts to nothing but "Christian pseudohistory" seems more wishful than factual.
As I said, I only looked up one quote and found it to be false, and that this throws suspicion on all the other -- I don't need to go over all the others to know that the source is untrustworthy.
The fact that they are promoted as "for use in schools" is to me indicative of the agenda to insert Christianity into schools rather than leave it where it belongs -- at home and at church.
We can also discuss Tom Paine, who was likely highly critical to the revolution actually occurring due to the popularity of his pamphlets and the ideas\ideals contained therein:
Thomas Paine - Wikipedia
quote:
... Paine emigrated to the British American colonies in 1774 with the help of Benjamin Franklin, arriving just in time to participate in the American Revolution. His principal contributions were the powerful, widely read pamphlet Common Sense (1776) that advocated colonial America's independence from the Kingdom of Great Britain, and The American Crisis (1776—83), a prorevolutionary pamphlet series. Common Sense was so influential that John Adams said, "Without the pen of the author of Common Sense, the sword of Washington would have been raised in vain."[4]
He went on to fight in the French Revolution, where he was nearly executed, but returned at age 65.
quote:
In 1802, he returned to America where he died on June 8, 1809. Only six people attended his funeral as he had been ostracized for his ridicule of Christianity.[5]
Rather than just ridicule Christianity, however he was an equal opportunity ridiculer of all organized religions.
quote:
About his own religious beliefs, Paine wrote in The Age of Reason:
I believe in one God, and no more; and I hope for happiness beyond this life.
I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church.
All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.
It was the institutions of religion more than the religious beliefs, and in this his views were echoed by Thomas Jefferson and others.
Edited by RAZD, : ...

we are limited in our ability to understand
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RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
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This message is a reply to:
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