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Author | Topic: Accuracy of Biblical Prophecy | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Coragyps Member (Idle past 765 days) Posts: 5553 From: Snyder, Texas, USA Joined:
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"The shekel is to consist of twenty gerahs. Twenty shekels plus twenty-five shekels plus fifteen shekels equal one mina... What happened to the gerah and the mina? Does the gerah translate into five agorot now? Or is the prophecy still awaiting fulfillment? Does sixty shekels make a mina today? Any idea on why there are 20- and 50-shekel notes, but no 60's, 25's or 15's? Which other prophecies were you going to compare here, again? The Gospel of The Invisible Pink Unicorn (PBUHHH!) can do as well as this one."The Christian church, in its attitude toward science, shows the mind of a more or less enlightened man of the Thirteenth Century. It no longer believes that the earth is flat, but it is still convinced that prayer can cure after medicine fails." H L Mencken
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
I think a clearer prophecy from Isaiah is the prediction of Christ's crucifixion in Is 53. Since the book of Isaiah was found in the Dead Sea scrolls, there is no question that this was written before Christ, before the Roman Empire, and before crucifixion was a common means of capital punishment. The dating is clearer, yes. But the discussion of whether the verse relates to Christ is quite heated as is evidenced from these forums.
As I understand it, one of the main reasons that this late date was proposed and accepted was that many scholars rejected the possibility of specific prophecies a priori. Hence, the question of when this was written and whether or not it was true prophecy reduces to a circular argument That would be true only if the opposing arguments stopped with he a priori assumption. Whether or not you agree with the anti-argument, I think it is not honest to pretend that it is so limited. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
Of course that cuts both ways. You can't say the book is no older than the copy but you can't say how much older it is either.
All I said was that Pressie was making the mistake of thinking you could date the book of Isaiah from a copy.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined:
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Of course that cuts both ways. You can't say the book is no older than the copy but you can't say how much older it is either. I made no claim whatever about the actual date, merely pointed out that Pressie was wrong to think the writing of Isaiah could be dated from the time of the Qumran Community simply because they had a copy of Isaiah. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Thanks.
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lokiare Member (Idle past 3680 days) Posts: 69 Joined: |
Can you prove they are not copied down exactly as written? Because there is proof that they were considered holy scripture and would have thus been well taken care of and meticulously copied from scroll to scroll as we saw from the dead sea scrolls to the later translations without a single mistake, despite them not being direct copies of each other.
In other words there is good evidence that they would have been carefully copied, what is your evidence they were altered or changed?
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lokiare Member (Idle past 3680 days) Posts: 69 Joined: |
I guess you think that millions of believers and thousands of Biblical scholars and theologians who accepted it as prophecy wouldn't have known if it wasn't prophecy? Nice try at the ad populum fallacy. No. I believe because the facts indicate they were written during the occupation based on the wording and tenses used. So while the initial 1-39 chapters were written before the occupation, chapters 40-54 were written during the occupation. When they couldn't have known who was going to rise to power and set them free.
Actually modern "scholars" sometimes refuse to believe in prophecy same as you, and intentionally redate the prophetic writings after the events prophesied, simply ignoring the traditional dates. Yes, this is a circular argument. "Because prophecies can't be true these things must be written after the fact, therefore they aren't true." Now you could say they might not be true because we can't verify when they were written, but that is about as far as you can go without presenting some actual evidence. Using Wikipedia as my source it appears that due to wording and the tenses used the book has been broken into 3 parts: Before, during, and after the Babylonian occupation.Book of Isaiah - Wikipedia If you read further you'll find that pretty much everyone believes them to have been written before the events they describe happening in the prophecy. What I would like to see is whether any Babylonian documentation survived that would either verify or refute these things. That would be actual evidence.
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lokiare Member (Idle past 3680 days) Posts: 69 Joined: |
Ridicule has moved your post down to the last one I will respond to. Thanks for your input.
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lokiare Member (Idle past 3680 days) Posts: 69 Joined: |
There are different views and arguments on the dating of the book of Isaiah. The traditional view is that the entire book was written by Isaiah in the 8th century BC. The modern critical view is that "second Isaiah" (Is 40-66) was written after the exile and the rebuilding of the temple. As I understand it, one of the main reasons that this late date was proposed and accepted was that many scholars rejected the possibility of specific prophecies a priori. Hence, the question of when this was written and whether or not it was true prophecy reduces to a circular argument. I don't think either side can make an argument that will convince their opposition. Actually they think the middle section (40-54) was written during the occupation and the rest (55-66) after the exile was ended. So while my initial post said the book of Isaiah was 150+ years old, the part with the prophecy was much younger.
quote: from Book of Isaiah - Wikipedia So the prophecy was written around 586 BCE and then the end of the exile and the restoration of the temple happened around 515 BCE a gap of 71 years. Not quite 150+. That's assuming the original author didn't simply take a past tense stance when writing the material knowing that the future Israeli people would be reading it. Most of the dating is based on things like writing style and tenses of words. I'd like to see some outside corroboration from a Babylonian or Persian source to either prove or disprove it.
I think a clearer prophecy from Isaiah is the prediction of Christ's crucifixion in Is 53. Since the book of Isaiah was found in the Dead Sea scrolls, there is no question that this was written before Christ, before the Roman Empire, and before crucifixion was a common means of capital punishment. Actually there is a description of his crucifixion in the psalms of which he was quoting from "father why have you forsaken me" That describes crucifixion long before it was practiced. Bible Search and Study Tools - Blue Letter Bible Instead of copying the whole thing, I'll just link it. P.S. If someone could explain how to quote the text in a post, I'd appreciate that as it would make responding much easier, for right now I'm doing it manually.
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Omnivorous Member Posts: 3992 From: Adirondackia Joined: Member Rating: 7.5 |
lokiare writes: P.S. If someone could explain how to quote the text in a post, I'd appreciate that as it would make responding much easier, for right now I'm doing it manually. quote: "If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
In other words there is good evidence that they would have been carefully copied, what is your evidence they were altered or changed? Go back and read Pressie's post in message 8. He does not claim that the documents are forged. He claims that they were written after the events that they prophesied had already occurred.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
P.S. If someone could explain how to quote the text in a post, I'd appreciate that as it would make responding much easier, for right now I'm doing it manually. You are doing it correctly. You have to cut/paste from the text and then add the quote codes manually. The message you are replying to is available to make the cutting/pasting easy. The system used to provide automatic quoting facilities, but many posters could not resist quoting and posting the entire message to which they were responding.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Why are you arguing with me? I believe in prophecy.
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Coragyps Member (Idle past 765 days) Posts: 5553 From: Snyder, Texas, USA Joined: |
That wasn't ridicule. Your verse talked about shekels and the other monetary units that go with them. Modern shekels are nothing like that. Not even close.
"The Christian church, in its attitude toward science, shows the mind of a more or less enlightened man of the Thirteenth Century. It no longer believes that the earth is flat, but it is still convinced that prayer can cure after medicine fails." H L Mencken
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Pressie Member Posts: 2103 From: Pretoria, SA Joined: |
Faith writes: I can hardly wait to see if there is an honest nonChristian here who will show you how you're wrong. Not even you can show me that I'm wrong. Fact is, the oldest 'copies' found are dated way after the event was supposed to have occurred.
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