Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 0/13 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Love is Greater than God
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 31 of 38 (721569)
03-09-2014 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by ringo
03-09-2014 3:01 PM


Re: What is Great?
Communal selfishness? Does that mean the community focusing on itself instead of on something external, like a spook? Isn't that loving thy neighbour?
In my opinion, a given communion(community or group) of people will have one Spirit or another. In my belief there is only One Spirit that=love...the rest are all pious platitudes and human generated dogma. I think that I can discern the Spirit and that a group---religious or not---will either have it or not have it. So in answer to your question, loving thy neighbor is allowing the "external Spook" to flow through you unto others.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by ringo, posted 03-09-2014 3:01 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by ringo, posted 03-10-2014 11:38 AM Phat has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 32 of 38 (721614)
03-10-2014 10:11 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Phat
03-09-2014 3:42 AM


Re: What's "better"?
Well, that's an old post to ask questions about.
Not sure if my current response will keep all the same context as I can't really remember my state-of-mind from that long ago. But I'll give it a shot:
Phat writes:
Stile writes:
If God allows my relationship to continue without any negatives at all and also allows me to receive all the positives while I keep Him out of the relationship... does this mean believing in God is non-consequential?
Just out of curiosity...why would you keep God out of the relationship?
The same reason I keep any stranger out. I have no idea what their intentions are.
If God is as fantastic as people sometimes say He is... then I would have no issues at all letting Him into the relationship between me and my wife. I would even invite Him in, it seems like He would be a great benefit.
But if God is as horrible and terrible as other people sometimes say He is... then I don't want Him anywhere near me and my wife.
So, who is God? What is He like? Does He even exist?
If those questions ever get some answers... then my position may very well change.
Until then... as long as God does not exist (or, at least, keeps Himself as a stranger to me...) then it would be irresponsible of me to open up important aspects of my life to Him.
I am certainly always open to hearing or learning about God. But it's just plain stupid to dive into a pool without checking the depth first...
Isn't the basic dogma to love Him first?
I've heard that, yes.
Sounds fishy to me. Like someone's trying to hide the fact that God just doesn't exist in the first place...
Just because someone says something, or someone else writes it down... doesn't mean it's a good thing to do.
Critics would say that you idolized your wife over God....not I, but some critics, anyway.
I'm sure many people say such things.
In life... you can't really do anything without someone voicing their disapproval.
I'm not really worried about people who say things that are indistinguishable from being completely made up.
I'm more worried about what people can show to be real.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Phat, posted 03-09-2014 3:42 AM Phat has not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 33 of 38 (721617)
03-10-2014 10:33 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by Phat
03-09-2014 3:46 PM


Re: Love and God
Phat writes:
It is my belief that love..in its purest sense...is impossible without God.
Could be. But doesn't seem so.
Neither of us can prove it either way... You may suggest that people can love without being religious but my contention is that God....by loving the world(all of us) allowed His Spirit to be present and available. Agape Love is Jesus. Jesus=truth, Jesus=Love. There is no redundancy.
Actually, I can prove it. You see, "love" exists in this world. And we can see the results of that love. Loving couples/families/friends... staying together forever... doing anything and everything for each other. These things are real and their real results can be seen and witnessed and recorded and reviewed.
So, what do we see when we review "love?"
We see that there are no barriers for love.
We see that Christians love.
We see that Hindus love.
We see that atheists love.
We see that homosexuals love.
We see that Killer Whales love.
And... we see that no one has some sort of "extra leg up" on the concept of love or it's results.
Not Christians over others.
Not those-who-belief-in-God over those-who-do-not
Not even humans over animals...
Therefore, the only conclusion is one of two things:
  • God does not exist and therefore has no impact on love
  • God either does not care about love, or He makes sure it doesn't matter if you care about God in order to experience love
Whatever way it is... we know from the results that God is a non-factor in love.
And, since love obviously is a factor in our lives from it's results... Love > God.
As long as I am being opinionated, I might add that humans may deny God and take credit for the love that they have...but that ...again...it is human nature to seek to elevate self over God.
Denying God doesn't necessarily mean you elevate yourself in His stead.
Your God-or-Selfish dichotomy is not real in any way. And it's very simple and easy to show that it is false:
You may very easily elevate "Love" in God's stead.
There. Obliterated your false dichotomy in under 10 words. All you had to do was think about it for a second.
My contention? It is impossible to love without the reality of Gods Spirit---though people can and do deny the existence.
That's possible. But not what the evidence proves.
In fact, it's explicitly contrary to what the evidence proves.
You may, quite validly, ignore the evidence and continue to make this claim.
But, if you're going to be honest you must acknowledge two things:
  1. You are going against the available evidence
  2. When trying to determine the reality of matters, the best method humans have ever devised is to follow the evidence
Does this mean that animals also have the Spirit? Yes...In Him is light and that light is the life of men.
Sure. Although this does sound like something someone would say just to appease their own doubts...
Why is a Spirit necessary? Why can't animals just "love" things because they're alive and have brains? Does such a concept that-really-has-nothing-to-do-with-you actually damage your sense of the-way-things-are that much?
I'm just stating how I feel.
Nothing wrong with that.
Edited by Stile, : That their is an edit, over they're.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Phat, posted 03-09-2014 3:46 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 34 of 38 (721626)
03-10-2014 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by Phat
03-09-2014 3:50 PM


Re: What is Great?
Phat writes:
So in answer to your question, loving thy neighbor is allowing the "external Spook" to flow through you unto others.
Unfortunately, reality doesn't seem to confirm your opinion. Those who believe in gods are the ones who spout pious platitudes and human-generated dogma. The ones who actually show that loving spirit flowing out from them are just as likely to be unbelievers.
I would say, on the contrary, that gods are not capable of love. Love requires empathy and gods are no more likely to have empathy for you than you are to have empathy for a tapeworm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Phat, posted 03-09-2014 3:50 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Phat, posted 03-10-2014 12:23 PM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 35 of 38 (721632)
03-10-2014 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by ringo
03-10-2014 11:38 AM


Re: What is Great?
ringo writes:
I would say, on the contrary, that gods are not capable of love. Love requires empathy and gods are no more likely to have empathy for you than you are to have empathy for a tapeworm.
This is jars argument. In my opinion, God became man(Jesus) so that He could communicate with us. In your example, God would become a tapeworm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by ringo, posted 03-10-2014 11:38 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by ringo, posted 03-10-2014 12:45 PM Phat has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 36 of 38 (721633)
03-10-2014 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Phat
03-10-2014 12:23 PM


Re: What is Great?
Phat writes:
In my opinion, God became man(Jesus) so that He could communicate with us.
So why isn't that communication an on-going thing? Why wouldn't God have a permanent representative on earth (like a Pope) who could actually understand humans? Why send a one-shot-wonder to "die for us"?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Phat, posted 03-10-2014 12:23 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Phat, posted 03-11-2014 9:23 AM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 37 of 38 (721678)
03-11-2014 9:23 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by ringo
03-10-2014 12:45 PM


The flow comes from above and radiates out of ourselves
ringo writes:
So why isn't that communication an on-going thing? Why wouldn't God have a permanent representative on earth (like a Pope) who could actually understand humans? Why send a one-shot-wonder to "die for us"?
The third person of the Trinity..the Holy Spirit (or as you call him, "the spook" is in my belief a very real and living presence. I talk to Him daily. It is my contention and belief that God does understand us...although I also like your assertion that we ourselves are the liaison to the rest of humanity.
It really is not an issue if my belief is right and that the Holy Spirit is available for daily communication/encouragement and interaction from our maker to us...or whether your contention that "we" humans is all there is and that it is our responsibility to communicate with and encourage each other.
The communication is happening...even right here on the internet...and we are (hopefully) doing our best to enlighten, joke with, and challenge each other during our daily keyboard time.
Why wouldn't God have a permanent representative on earth...
Perhaps we are that representative....
Now if you will excuse me...Im going to help Mom do some shopping...
Edited by Phat, : added features

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by ringo, posted 03-10-2014 12:45 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by ringo, posted 03-11-2014 11:42 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 38 of 38 (721691)
03-11-2014 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by Phat
03-11-2014 9:23 AM


Re: The flow comes from above and radiates out of ourselves
Phat writes:
ringo writes:
Why wouldn't God have a permanent representative on earth...
Perhaps we are that representative....
Good point.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Phat, posted 03-11-2014 9:23 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024