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Author Topic:   The Divine signature in the Torah
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(7)
Message 9 of 139 (721268)
03-05-2014 10:46 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Eliyahu
03-05-2014 12:52 PM


Some people doubt the fact that the Torah is of divine origin.
Fortunately, for those we have the divine signature in the Torah, something that is totally unique to the Torah, namely the codes woven into the Torah.
But even if we suppose that all these things like you've described were the result of an intelligent stunt to hide or bury words in subtle ways included into Biblical texts, I still wonder why you would think this was utterly divine. By what sign could we all conclude that this literature was designed by the Omnipotent instead of a determined man? But perhaps you doubt that a clever chap could ever manage such a thing. This paragraph indicates that yes he could.
Butevenifwes
upposethatal
lthesethings
likeyou'vede
scribedweret
heresultofan
intelligents
tunttohideor
burywordsins
ubtlewaysinc
ludedintoBib
licaltexts,I
stillwonderw
hyyouwouldth
inkthiswasut
terlydivine.
Bywhatsignco
uldweallconc
ludethatthis
literaturewa
sdesignedbyt
heOmnipotent
insteadofade
terminedman?
Butperhapsyo
udoubtthatac
leverchapcou
ldevermanage
suchathing.T
hisparagraph
indicatestha
tyeshecould.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Eliyahu, posted 03-05-2014 12:52 PM Eliyahu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by sfs, posted 03-05-2014 11:06 PM Dr Adequate has not replied
 Message 11 by Eliyahu, posted 03-05-2014 11:19 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 13 of 139 (721273)
03-05-2014 11:37 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Eliyahu
03-05-2014 11:19 PM


Yes, I mean something like that, but then woven into an existing text that actually makes sense.
That text does exist and actually makes sense. How about you answer it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Eliyahu, posted 03-05-2014 11:19 PM Eliyahu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Eliyahu, posted 03-06-2014 10:44 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(2)
Message 16 of 139 (721276)
03-06-2014 2:37 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Eliyahu
03-06-2014 12:21 AM


Isn't that amazing?
But the examples you give are much much less amazing than almost any such acrostic formed by mere humans. This one written here without too great an effort by far exceeds - in quantity, and in quality - the rather dull acrostics you wish to attribute to the wisdom of the Almighty. Why He didn't design acrostics better than I can is up to you to say; I'd like to propose the likelihood of God's not really being the author; I feel this elucidates the otherwise hard and obscure problem. You say that God made all the acrostics? Allow me to suggest,sir, that if Yahweh had done so, they'd indubitably be better than these risible efforts, as a four-part-fugue would exceed in its quality the duller nursery rhymes, or as the greatest novels in comparison to a stupid anecdote. To be honest, the odd quirks and features listed in your post look interesting as coincidences; as handiworks of some intelligent artist they really suck.
Buttheexamplesyo
ugivearemuchmuch
lessamazingthana
lmostanysuchacro
sticformedbymere
humans.Thisonewr
ittenherewithout
toogreataneffort
byfarexceeds-inq
uantity,andinqua
lity-theratherdu
llacrosticsyouwi
shtoattributetot
hewisdomoftheAlm
ighty.WhyHedidn'
tdesignacrostics
betterthanIcanis
uptoyoutosay;I'd
liketoproposethe
likelihoodofGod'
snotreallybeingt
heauthor;Ifeelth
iselucidatestheo
therwisehardando
bscureproblem.Yo
usaythatGodmadea
lltheacrostics?A
llowmetosuggest,
sir,thatifYahweh
haddoneso,they'd
indubitablybebet
terthantheserisi
bleefforts,asafo
ur-part-fuguewou
ldexceedinitsqua
litythedullernur
seryrhymes,orast
hegreatestnovels
incomparisontoas
tupidanecdote.To
behonest,theoddq
uirksandfeatures
listedinyourpost
lookinterestinga
scoincidences;as
handiworksofsome
intelligentartis
ttheyreallysuck.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Eliyahu, posted 03-06-2014 12:21 AM Eliyahu has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 20 of 139 (721305)
03-06-2014 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Eliyahu
03-06-2014 12:21 AM


Megilah means scroll, and megilat means scroll of.
The scroll with the book of Esther on it is called megilat Esther, which means the scroll of Esther, or Esther scroll. So the only place in the Torah where the word esther appears, there is coded with a skip of 12,111, the amount of letters in the book of Esther, the word scroll, which together makes Esther scroll.
By the way, would you condescend to telll us why, if God truly wrote this, he was forced to employ the expedience of writing "megilah" if the correct word is by accurate Hebrew usage really "megilat"? With so great latitude for His dispositions of all the letters, we'd think that He could do the job better, no?
Bytheway,wouldyo
ucondescendtotel
lluswhy,ifGodtru
lywrotethis,hewa
sforcedtoemployt
heexpedienceofwr
iting"megilah"if
thecorrectwordis
byaccurateHebrew
usagereally"megi
lat"?Withsogreat
latitudeforHisdi
spositionsofallt
heletters,we'dth
inkthatHecoulddo
thejobbetter,no?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Eliyahu, posted 03-06-2014 12:21 AM Eliyahu has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 23 of 139 (721309)
03-06-2014 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by NoNukes
03-06-2014 12:55 PM


12,111? Really?
Damn right. Me, I go writing stuff that is a whole lot harder to implement and still somehow no-one's ready to grovel, and to worship me as a god. Really, I wonder what signs I have to show to people on this forum before I acquire the respect I deserve.
Damnright.Me,Igow
ritingstuffthatis
awholelotharderto
implementandstill
somehowno-one'sre
adytogrovel,andto
worshipmeasagod.R
eally,Iwonderwhat
signsIhavetoshowt
opeopleonthisforu
mbeforeIacquireth
erespectIdeserve.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by NoNukes, posted 03-06-2014 12:55 PM NoNukes has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Dogmafood, posted 03-06-2014 10:16 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 27 of 139 (721354)
03-06-2014 5:13 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Eliyahu
03-06-2014 1:45 PM


We found megilat Esther encoded in the book of Genesis.
No.
Isn't that amazing?
No.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Eliyahu, posted 03-06-2014 1:45 PM Eliyahu has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 39 of 139 (721407)
03-06-2014 11:55 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Dogmafood
03-06-2014 10:16 PM


Do you come with a promise of eternal happiness and plenty of virgins?
My heaven is actually stocked with women who've been round the block a few times and know their way around. Who the heck wants a virgin?
If so, where do I send the cheque?
One of the most sacred tenets of my religion is that I only take cash.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Dogmafood, posted 03-06-2014 10:16 PM Dogmafood has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 40 of 139 (721408)
03-06-2014 11:56 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Eliyahu
03-06-2014 11:10 PM


Let's just add statistics to the list of things you don't understand and move on, eh?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Eliyahu, posted 03-06-2014 11:10 PM Eliyahu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Eliyahu, posted 03-07-2014 12:56 AM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 55 of 139 (721447)
03-07-2014 10:03 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by Eliyahu
03-07-2014 9:07 AM


Isn't that weird, that something with a so obvious fallacy, passes through six years of peer review, by the worlds best statisticians?
How did you rank the world's statisticians, what with you knowing bugger-all about statistics?
Those combinations were of course predicted in advance.
That would either be a huge retarded lie, or something for which you have evidence.
And so far I've not seen any evidence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Eliyahu, posted 03-07-2014 9:07 AM Eliyahu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Eliyahu, posted 03-07-2014 10:11 AM Dr Adequate has replied
 Message 57 by Eliyahu, posted 03-07-2014 10:25 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 61 of 139 (721466)
03-07-2014 2:14 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Eliyahu
03-07-2014 10:11 AM


Look into the Great Rabbis Experiment and you'll see.
So you're not going to show us any evidence?
Gee, how did I guess?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Eliyahu, posted 03-07-2014 10:11 AM Eliyahu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by Eliyahu, posted 03-09-2014 9:53 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 62 of 139 (721467)
03-07-2014 2:19 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Eliyahu
03-07-2014 12:56 AM


I might not understand it, but at the peer reviewed journal Statiscal Science, there they do understand it.
Thank you for that admission. So since the same journal tore this imaginary Bible code into shreds and jumped up and down on the pieces, you will now admit that it's stupid, yes?
* does not hold breath *

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Eliyahu, posted 03-07-2014 12:56 AM Eliyahu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by Eliyahu, posted 03-09-2014 9:36 AM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(6)
Message 64 of 139 (721497)
03-08-2014 1:06 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by Theodoric
03-07-2014 1:11 PM


Re: Ignorant or not telling truth?
So what is it ignorance or deceit?
Let's not be narrow-minded. Why can't it be both?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Theodoric, posted 03-07-2014 1:11 PM Theodoric has seen this message but not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(2)
Message 79 of 139 (721570)
03-09-2014 4:10 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by Eliyahu
03-09-2014 9:36 AM


No, because more peer reviewed articles have been released on the subject, ripping the supposed "refutation" to shreds, and jumping up and down on the pieces, while at the same time thoroughly establishing the Bible codes.
As you're mathematically illiterate, I'm not going to take your word for whose papers are better than whose.
For the finer details see message 71.
It has fine details? Where? Do I have to read every seventh letter?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Eliyahu, posted 03-09-2014 9:36 AM Eliyahu has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(5)
Message 80 of 139 (721572)
03-09-2014 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by Eliyahu
03-09-2014 9:22 AM


In 2006, at the 18th International Pattern Recognition Conference, which took place in Hong Kong, there were six papers published in support of the Torah codes. All of these papers were subject to peer review, which means that fellow scientists reviewed the papers and could note any flaw in the research or logic that they might find. Were they to find an uncorrectable flaw, the paper would be rejected.
And yet somehow these alleged six papers don't appear in the program of the conference or in the published proceedings of the conference. Nor does Gans himself. So this looks like a great big lie with a topping of bullshit sauce.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Eliyahu, posted 03-09-2014 9:22 AM Eliyahu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by Theodoric, posted 03-09-2014 9:14 PM Dr Adequate has replied
 Message 87 by Eliyahu, posted 03-10-2014 1:03 AM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 82 of 139 (721580)
03-09-2014 9:44 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by Theodoric
03-09-2014 9:14 PM


What he said was "In 2006, at the 18th International Pattern Recognition Conference, which took place in Hong Kong, there were six papers published in support of the Torah codes." I don't see what it can mean for a paper to be published (rather than read) at a conference, unless it means that the paper appeared in the Proceedings of the conference, which they didn't.
So what does Gans mean? Does he mean, as you suggest, that he put on his own unofficial unscheduled sideshow at the time and place where the conference was being held? But then the papers were still not published at the conference.
All this makes nonsense --- double nonsense --- of his claim that:
According to scientific rules, in order for critics to disprove the Torah codes, they would have to find fatal flaws in each of the six papers presenting a different approach and a different code. This happened five years ago, and to date not a single flaw was found in any of these papers. Therefore, for all intent and purposes, the Torah codes have been scientifically proven, and the debate is over.
Apart from the fact that science doesn't work like that (which is why no-one has ever been awarded a Nobel Prize In Triviality And Obscurity), if the papers aren't there in the scientific literature for anyone to pick holes in, then the alleged fact that no-one has done so is neither here nor there.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Theodoric, posted 03-09-2014 9:14 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
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