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Author Topic:   The Divine signature in the Torah
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 139 (721245)
03-05-2014 2:06 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Larni
03-05-2014 1:43 PM


They have been the subject of much debate, books have been written about them, people tried to debunk them, they have been published in high grade peer reviewed scientific journals like for instance "Statistical Science", people tried to debunk them in that self same journal, but when everything is said and done, one conclusion is inescapable, the codes exist.
How about a pointer to this stuff.
Claims of this type, if they are not to be dismissed as numerology at best, have a high threshold to meet before they will be considered credible.
Given that we are in the science forums, I would have expected that the vetting process would be a little heavier on the evidence side.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Larni, posted 03-05-2014 1:43 PM Larni has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Eliyahu, posted 03-06-2014 11:10 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 139 (721306)
03-06-2014 12:55 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Eliyahu
03-06-2014 12:21 AM


Skip from there another 12,111 letters, and a lamed (L) will appear. Another 12,111 letters further a tav (T) will appear, and that makes together M-G-L-T, which is the Hebrew word megilat.
This example crosses the border of silly bogs down several feet in the realm of Pathetic. Just pee-poor pathetic. (Pardon my Aramaic).
Having found the letters MGLT, someone looks for an interpretation of them, and finds something, anything. If nothing turns up, then we simply don't mention our attempt to anyone.
That is the secret of Bible Codes. Put the text into a computer and play around with counting algorithms until something turns up. Then claim God did it on purpose. The result is even lamer than those Nostradamus quatrains.
12,111? Really?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Eliyahu, posted 03-06-2014 12:21 AM Eliyahu has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-06-2014 1:15 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 139 (721358)
03-06-2014 6:10 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Eliyahu
03-06-2014 1:45 PM


Now if we jump from the first time Amalek appears in Gen 14, from the first letter ayin of Amalek, and we skip 12,111 letters, then we get a mem
In other words, you spotted yourself the 'A' cause you started there, and because you don't really need to find any more vowels you were able to make Amalek out of only three letters.
Not so amazing. It's rather pedestrian bible coding. At least other folks manage to find entire phrases. You find 3 or four letters...

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Eliyahu, posted 03-06-2014 1:45 PM Eliyahu has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 66 of 139 (721529)
03-08-2014 8:44 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Eliyahu
03-07-2014 10:11 AM


Look into the Great Rabbis Experiment and you'll see.
An actual discussion of this matter would be about Witztum, Rips, and Rosenberg's [WRR] paper and the many papers refuting his paper. I asked you for a pointer to the paper and the attempts to refute it that you labeled ineffective. You answered my post but provided no citation.
You have since admitted that you cannot follow the statistics in WRR's paper. So what is there worth discussing with you on this topic? You have no way of knowing which of WRR or their detractors are correct because you are incapable of evaluating the arguments of either.
Those combinations were of course predicted in advance.
Look into the Great Rabbis Experiment and you'll see.
No, they were not predicted in advance. WRR alleges that the codes tell of events that happened after the text was written, but his analysis, conducted in 1994, is of events occurring well in the past.
A prediction would occur if a living rabbi learned his death date by reading a Bible code. Never happened. Instead there are supposedly a bunch of dates and a 'proximity' to something suggesting a famous rabbi's name.
And all thoroughly debunked shortly after the 1994 paper was published.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Eliyahu, posted 03-07-2014 10:11 AM Eliyahu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by Eliyahu, posted 03-09-2014 9:05 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 75 of 139 (721546)
03-09-2014 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by Eliyahu
03-09-2014 9:05 AM


That's why I rely on authorities in those fields, and that's why I don't make up stories myself, but show what big experts in those fields say.
Well the authorities say that WRR's paper is bullocks and my point is that you have no ability to critique that. So talking with you is pointless.
There was nothing "thoroughly debunked". All there was was a ridiculous accusation of a wide spread conspiracy to cook the data in such a way that it would give a meaningfull result..
As has been discussed several times, a refutation was published in 1999 in the same journal in which the original article appeared.
And calling the debunking 'ridiculous' is not an answer. It is your mere assertion, and we know you are not capable of carrying on a discussion about it.
Further, your characterization of the nature of the rebuttal is completely inaccurate. The flaws in WRR's work are well documented. Essentially no one but a few 'true believers' have adopted the position that the codes have any merit.
In essence, what we have here is a disagreement among experts with you unable to take any meaningful part in a discussion about who is right.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Eliyahu, posted 03-09-2014 9:05 AM Eliyahu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by Eliyahu, posted 03-10-2014 12:14 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 76 of 139 (721547)
03-09-2014 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by Eliyahu
03-09-2014 9:53 AM


Here is the whole paper, that's all the evidence you need:
http://www.realbiblecodes.com/experiments/WRR.pdf
Finally you provide a pointer. But Theodoric has already done that for you. He also provided a link to the paper, the published rebuttal, and a lot of other critical material.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Eliyahu, posted 03-09-2014 9:53 AM Eliyahu has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(3)
Message 77 of 139 (721548)
03-09-2014 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by Tangle
03-09-2014 10:03 AM


They laughed at Galileo' is a silly playground argument.
Comparing yourself to Galileo is worth 40 points on John Baez's famous crackpot index.
http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/crackpot.html
quote:
34. 40 points for claiming that the "scientific establishment" is engaged in a "conspiracy" to prevent your work from gaining its well-deserved fame, or suchlike.
35. 40 points for comparing yourself to Galileo, suggesting that a modern-day Inquisition is hard at work on your case, and so on.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Tangle, posted 03-09-2014 10:03 AM Tangle has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 97 of 139 (721607)
03-10-2014 8:34 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by Eliyahu
03-10-2014 2:47 AM


Can anybody point out a fatal flaw in all of the six papers presented at the 2006 ICPR, each presenting a different approach and a different code.
If not, then for all intent and purposes, the Torah codes have been scientifically proven, and the debate is over.
What papers?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by Eliyahu, posted 03-10-2014 2:47 AM Eliyahu has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 101 of 139 (721638)
03-10-2014 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by Eliyahu
03-10-2014 12:14 AM


If there were any flaws in it, it would never have been published in a peer reviewed journal to begin with.
This idea of yours is wrong and no one familiar with the scientific method would maintain such a position. Peer review does not establish the accuracy of the paper. Peer review means only that there is sufficient analysis for the paper to be of interest to others in the field. You are aware that the paper was rejected by another journal during peer review, right?
The true test of a scientific paper is in the testing and replication of results by others in the field. The paper should provide enough data to do that and enough analysis to check the author's work.
Otherwise we could say that Pons papers on Cold Fusion established that he was correct about the subject.
In this particular case, we have the quoted remarks of one of the peer reviewers who stated explicitly the nature of his review, and his final conclusion that the paper was bunk.
Are we to believe that whoever publishes last is correct? Are we to believe that the 1999 peer reviewed paper debunking WRR's paper is of lesser quality than the 1994 paper.
Your reasoning is hogwash. There are published, peer reviewed and otherwise critiques of WRR's paper. The correct way to decide who is correct is to analyze the papers and not to simply date them or look at who has gotten in the last word.
I understand that the indirect methods you use for evaluating the papers is the only possibility for you since you refuse to even speak to the actual arguments made by either side. Well, sorry, but just because you are doing the best you can does not mean your efforts are good enough.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Eliyahu, posted 03-10-2014 12:14 AM Eliyahu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by Eliyahu, posted 03-10-2014 2:40 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 107 of 139 (721654)
03-11-2014 12:20 AM
Reply to: Message 106 by Eliyahu
03-11-2014 12:07 AM


[duplicate]
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by Eliyahu, posted 03-11-2014 12:07 AM Eliyahu has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 108 of 139 (721655)
03-11-2014 12:26 AM
Reply to: Message 106 by Eliyahu
03-11-2014 12:07 AM


Maybe osmium isn't most dense...
There are plenty mathematicians out there with a lot of time on their hands who, just like you, hate religion and the Bible codes, who could have written a rebuttal in the past eight years, and made a name for themselves as the one who debunked the Bible codes.
Except that the rebutting has already been done by a very capable mathematician. There is no longer any name to be made by rebutting Bible codes and outside of discussions like this, very little interest. It's already the case that essentially nobody capable of doing the math believes in this stuff. People believe in God or don't complete independent of this stuff.
Again, a proper discussion for those who cannot evaluate the codes first hand starts with discussion of the paper and the rebuttals. Since your guys published last, they have had the last word.
But just as we don't declare the lawyer who has the last closing statement the winner, we don't declare the person who published the last article to be the winner either. At some point all arguments, just like this one, must end. Absent an "I yield", we decide based on the presentation.
I would welcome a discussion with someone ready to defend the Bible codes on their merits according to the papers you've referenced. But I don't think that's going to happen here. Not with you anyway.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by Eliyahu, posted 03-11-2014 12:07 AM Eliyahu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by Eliyahu, posted 03-11-2014 3:07 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 110 of 139 (721668)
03-11-2014 1:38 AM
Reply to: Message 109 by Dr Adequate
03-11-2014 12:43 AM


Can you think of one scientist or mathematician, just one, whose reputation rests on publicly humiliating a harmless crank?
Not that your entire rep rests on it, but I did cheer your post.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-11-2014 12:43 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 113 of 139 (721677)
03-11-2014 9:20 AM
Reply to: Message 111 by Eliyahu
03-11-2014 3:07 AM


You are literally advertising your ignorance in your signature.
Seriously? You actually believe that the scientific method is to believe whoever last published an article?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by Eliyahu, posted 03-11-2014 3:07 AM Eliyahu has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by Tangle, posted 03-11-2014 9:44 AM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied
 Message 117 by Theodoric, posted 03-11-2014 10:42 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
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