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Author Topic:   The Divine signature in the Torah
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2260 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 31 of 139 (721376)
03-06-2014 10:39 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Tangle
03-06-2014 1:59 PM


Not even going t start reading that until you've answered the people that are calling you out on this garbage.
Quit preaching; it's really, really tedious, harms whatever feeble argument you might have had and it's going to get you banned.
Bs'd
Nobody is as blind as he who doens't want to see.


"The only reality is mind and observations."

Richard Conn Henry, professor Johns Hopkin department of physics

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Tangle, posted 03-06-2014 1:59 PM Tangle has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Coyote, posted 03-06-2014 10:42 PM Eliyahu has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 32 of 139 (721380)
03-06-2014 10:42 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Eliyahu
03-06-2014 10:39 PM


Nobody is as blind as he who doens't want to see.
Do you not see yourself among the blind?
You are clinging to old tribal myths in spite of the evidence from the real world.
That seems blind to me.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Eliyahu, posted 03-06-2014 10:39 PM Eliyahu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Eliyahu, posted 03-06-2014 10:50 PM Coyote has replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2260 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 33 of 139 (721382)
03-06-2014 10:44 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Dr Adequate
03-05-2014 11:37 PM


.
Edited by Eliyahu, : No reason given.


"The only reality is mind and observations."

Richard Conn Henry, professor Johns Hopkin department of physics

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-05-2014 11:37 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2260 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 34 of 139 (721385)
03-06-2014 10:50 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Coyote
03-06-2014 10:42 PM


Do you not see yourself among the blind?
You are clinging to old tribal myths in spite of the evidence from the real world.
That seems blind to me.
Bs'd
As I have shown, there is A LOT more to these tribal myths than meets the eye.
And as I have shown, it is that what you think is the real world that doesn't exsist.


"The only reality is mind and observations."

Richard Conn Henry, professor Johns Hopkin department of physics

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Coyote, posted 03-06-2014 10:42 PM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Coyote, posted 03-06-2014 10:55 PM Eliyahu has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 35 of 139 (721389)
03-06-2014 10:55 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Eliyahu
03-06-2014 10:50 PM


As I have shown, there is A LOT more to these tribal myths than meets the eye.
And as I have shown, it is that what you think is the real world that doesn't exsist.
BfD
Sorry, you haven't "shown" anything.
On the contrary, your old tribal myths have long since been shown to be mostly incorrect.
You are a prime example of the old adage, "Belief gets in the way of learning." You are incapable of learning anything that goes against your a priori beliefs. That makes you the exact opposite of a scientist.
The Enlightenment seems to have passed you by completely.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Eliyahu, posted 03-06-2014 10:50 PM Eliyahu has not replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2260 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 36 of 139 (721395)
03-06-2014 11:10 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by NoNukes
03-05-2014 2:06 PM


How about a pointer to this stuff.
Claims of this type, if they are not to be dismissed as numerology at best, have a high threshold to meet before they will be considered credible.
Given that we are in the science forums, I would have expected that the vetting process would be a little heavier on the evidence side.
Bs'd
The evidence side was taken care of when the Great Rabbi's Experiment was published in Statistical Science.
Normally in science, a chance of 1 in 20 is taken as not te be coincidence anymore, for instance in testing medication.
For publication in Statistical Science the bar was put a lot higher, they demanded that the codes would be there with a maximum chance of 1 in 1000.
The Great Rabbi's Experiment beat those odds with a factor 50. The chances of the names of those rabbi's being coded together with their date of birth or death was smaller than 1 in 50,000.
So after six years of brooding on the codes, and after calling in the worlds foremost expert on statistics who delved into it, and who couldn't find a flaw, it was published.
That would take care of the science part.
Edited by Eliyahu, : No reason given.


"The only reality is mind and observations."

Richard Conn Henry, professor Johns Hopkin department of physics

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by NoNukes, posted 03-05-2014 2:06 PM NoNukes has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Coyote, posted 03-06-2014 11:29 PM Eliyahu has replied
 Message 40 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-06-2014 11:56 PM Eliyahu has replied
 Message 46 by Taq, posted 03-07-2014 2:33 AM Eliyahu has replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2260 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 37 of 139 (721399)
03-06-2014 11:24 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by AZPaul3
03-05-2014 6:13 PM


Re: This is real
You didn't even bother with the source I provided, did you.
Here's another for you to ignore. Be sure not to look through all the links at the bottom.
And yet another with lots of links to ignore, especially the "Expert Opinions" link toward the bottom where there are a dozen links to studies each with links to more studies. You want overwhelming? You got it.
Bs'd
Just give me something that compares to the Esther code I gave you, a code with a constantly repeating very signifiicant number, like 12,111 in the purim code.
It just doesn't exist in any other text.


"The only reality is mind and observations."

Richard Conn Henry, professor Johns Hopkin department of physics

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by AZPaul3, posted 03-05-2014 6:13 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by AZPaul3, posted 03-07-2014 1:38 AM Eliyahu has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 38 of 139 (721400)
03-06-2014 11:29 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Eliyahu
03-06-2014 11:10 PM


BfD
And I have been assured, by another believer, that the odds against evolution are 1720.
From this, do you see why we tend not to trust anything true believers say?
==============
But if you want old myths, here is a good one:
The Creation of Men and Women
When the world was finished, there were as yet no people, but the Bald Eagle was chief of the animals. He saw that the world was incomplete and decided to make some human beings. So he took some clay and modeled the figure of a man and laid him on the ground. At first he was very small but he grew rapidly until he reached normal size. But as yet he had no life; he was still asleep. Then the Bald Eagle stood and admired his work. "It is impossible," he said, "that he should be left alone; he must have a mate." So he pulled out a feather and laid it beside the sleeping man. Then he left them and went off a short distance, for he knew that a woman was being formed from the feather. But the man was still asleep and did not know what was happening. When the Bald Eagle decided that the woman was about completed, he returned, awoke the man by flapping his wings over him and flew away.
The man opened his eyes and stared at the woman. "What does this mean?" he asked. "I thought I was alone!" Then the Bald Eagle returned and said with a smile, "I see you have a mate! Have you had intercourse with her?" "No," replied he man, for he and the woman knew nothing about each other. Then the Bald Eagle called to Coyote who happened to be going by and said to him, "Do you see that woman? Try her first!" Coyote was quite willing and complied, but immediately afterwards lay down and died. The Bald Eagle went away and left Coyote dead, but presently returned and revived him. "How did it work?" said the Bald Eagle. "Pretty well, but it nearly kills a man!" replied Coyote. "Will you try it again?" said the Bald Eagle. Coyote agreed, and tried again, and this time survived. Then the Bald Eagle turned to the man and said, "She is all right now; you and she are to live together.
California Indian creation story

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Eliyahu, posted 03-06-2014 11:10 PM Eliyahu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Eliyahu, posted 03-07-2014 1:02 AM Coyote has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 39 of 139 (721407)
03-06-2014 11:55 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Dogmafood
03-06-2014 10:16 PM


Do you come with a promise of eternal happiness and plenty of virgins?
My heaven is actually stocked with women who've been round the block a few times and know their way around. Who the heck wants a virgin?
If so, where do I send the cheque?
One of the most sacred tenets of my religion is that I only take cash.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Dogmafood, posted 03-06-2014 10:16 PM Dogmafood has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 40 of 139 (721408)
03-06-2014 11:56 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Eliyahu
03-06-2014 11:10 PM


Let's just add statistics to the list of things you don't understand and move on, eh?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Eliyahu, posted 03-06-2014 11:10 PM Eliyahu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Eliyahu, posted 03-07-2014 12:56 AM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2260 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 41 of 139 (721416)
03-07-2014 12:56 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by Dr Adequate
03-06-2014 11:56 PM


Let's just add statistics to the list of things you don't understand and move on, eh?
Bs'd
I might not understand it, but at the peer reviewed journal Statiscal Science, there they do understand it.
And like I said, after six years of brooding on the codes, and after calling in the worlds foremost expert on statistics who delved into it, and who couldn't find a flaw, it was published.
That should take care of the statistics part.


"The only reality is mind and observations."

Richard Conn Henry, professor Johns Hopkin department of physics

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-06-2014 11:56 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-07-2014 2:19 PM Eliyahu has replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2260 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 42 of 139 (721417)
03-07-2014 1:02 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by Coyote
03-06-2014 11:29 PM


And I have been assured, by another believer, that the odds against evolution are 1720.
From this, do you see why we tend not to trust anything true believers say?
Bs'd
No, I don't see. You as an evolutionist should believe that right away.
But anyway, the chances of a human being forming by blind chance, as you think, are not 1 in 1720, but 1 in 10^40,000.
Edited by Eliyahu, : No reason given.


"The only reality is mind and observations."

Richard Conn Henry, professor Johns Hopkin department of physics

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Coyote, posted 03-06-2014 11:29 PM Coyote has not replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2260 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 43 of 139 (721418)
03-07-2014 1:22 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by AZPaul3
03-06-2014 7:01 AM


Re: This is not real
The links contain the information on the Tolstoy and Melville codes as well as other information that debunks your divine cryptography.
As you said about the codes applies also to their refutation. "There is no debate necessary about these codes, because everybody can check them out, they are there. They are a fact." So check them out. They are a fact. Your holy protocols are bunk.
The evidence has been provided, Eli. All you have to do is click a button and read.
Bs'd
I did, and I saw codes in for instance, Moby Dick.
However, those codes don't have any statistical relevance, nor does McKay claim so.
If you have an almost unlimited amount of terms and variations of a name to start searching for, and the skip you can use varies from very small to very large, then you are bound to find something.
But, like I said, the statistical significance of that hovers around zero.
However, like I said, for the Great Rabbi's Experiment, a maximum chance of 1 in 1000 was demanded for publication, and a chance of less than 1 in 50,000 was delivered.
That is statistically significant.
The Esther code, works with a skip of 12,111, which is a very significant number, because it is the amount of letters in the Esther scroll.
Really significant numbers are hard to find, and you won't find more than a handfull for a given subject, so then your chances of finding anything go down dramatically.
And when that selfsame significant number can be used several times more for the same subject, like it is the case in the Esther codes, then the chances of that happening by coincidence become astronomically small.
So that is the difference between the Moby Dick codes, and the Torah codes.
If you don't believe me, just give me something like the Esther code in Moby Dick. Codes being found with a very significant skip, which repeats itself a few times.
It just doesn't exist .
Here on this page http://cs.anu.edu.au/~bdm/dilugim/mobydet.txt McKay gives some skip numbers,
Name Start Skip
IGANDHI 13258 102857
MOAWAD 44533 90073
812368 -116726
TROTSKY 836052 -61095
MLKING 234760 -26026
DOLLFUSS 787845 19000
SSIRHAN 4547 127000
89795 41773
499443 68585
528373 -12582
KENNEDY 93063 13798
888633 -7616
93063 13798
LINCOLN 642829 -1450
RABIN 327517 -4
As you can see they are totally irrelevant to the subject, usually very big, and not a single one repeats itself.
So no statiscal significance whatsoever. Nor is that claimed by McKay.
So bringing those codes is an exercise in futility.
This in contradistinction to the Torah codes, which are statistically highly significant.
Edited by Eliyahu, : No reason given.


"The only reality is mind and observations."

Richard Conn Henry, professor Johns Hopkin department of physics

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by AZPaul3, posted 03-06-2014 7:01 AM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by AZPaul3, posted 03-07-2014 9:16 AM Eliyahu has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 44 of 139 (721419)
03-07-2014 1:38 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by Eliyahu
03-06-2014 11:24 PM


Re: This is real
Just give me something that compares to the Esther code I gave you, a code with a constantly repeating very signifiicant number, like 12,111 in the purim code.
Why should we? Your junk's already been debunked times a thousand. We do not need to entertain any further presumptions of your delusions. Any further nonsense numerology from you only shows your desperation, your cognitive dissonance, at having watched one of your personal pillars of faith ground into dust by truth. The bible codes have been shown to be false and that is all that is necessary.
Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Eliyahu, posted 03-06-2014 11:24 PM Eliyahu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Eliyahu, posted 03-07-2014 1:57 AM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2260 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 45 of 139 (721420)
03-07-2014 1:57 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by AZPaul3
03-07-2014 1:38 AM


Re: This is real
Just give me something that compares to the Esther code I gave you, a code with a constantly repeating very signifiicant number, like 12,111 in the purim code.
Why should we?
Bs'd
In order to prove your point.
Your junk's already been debunked times a thousand.
No it is not.
What has been shown, is that statistically non-significant codes exist in other big texts.
No statistically significant codes have been shown in any other text than the Torah.
We do not need to entertain any further presumptions of your delusions. Any further nonsense numerology from you only shows your desperation, your cognitive dissonance, at having watched one of your personal pillars of faith ground into dust by truth. The bible codes have been shown to be false
The Bible codes have not been shown to be false.
To begin with, as I have shown, as everybody can ascertain for himself, the codes are there. Like the "Torah" codes in 4 of the 5 books in the Torah, with in the middle book the name of God coded.
Something like that is not found in any other religious text, or any non-religious text, except maybe the BS text of Adequate, but that is made especailly for that purpose, and does not serve any other purpose.
And the codes in the Torah are statiscally very significant, which is proven by the fact that peer reviewed publications are coming forth about them.
The Purim code is an example of a code with a highly significant skip which repeats itself three times, which is extremely unlikely to happen by chance.


"The only reality is mind and observations."

Richard Conn Henry, professor Johns Hopkin department of physics

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by AZPaul3, posted 03-07-2014 1:38 AM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-09-2014 11:23 PM Eliyahu has not replied

  
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