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Author Topic:   The Divine signature in the Torah
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2259 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 1 of 139 (721234)
03-05-2014 12:52 PM


Bs'd
Some people doubt the fact that the Torah is of divine origin.
Fortunately, for those we have the divine signature in the Torah, something that is totally unique to the Torah, namely the codes woven into the Torah.
They have been the subject of much debate, books have been written about them, people tried to debunk them, they have been published in high grade peer reviewed scientific journals like for instance "Statistical Science", people tried to debunk them in that self same journal, but when everything is said and done, one conclusion is inescapable, the codes exist.
This can be checked by everybody who takes a few minutes to check them out. Hebrew texts of the Torah are available online, the Hebrew alphabet can be found in many places, for instance here: Hebrew alphabet - Wikipedia, and that is enough to see the codes for yourself.
For instance, the Torah starts with the word bereshiet, which means in the beginning. The last letter of that word is a tav, the Hebrew equivalent of the English T. When we skip from that tav 49 letters after it, (49 being 7 x 7, and 7 is a special number in Judaism) then we get a waav, a W, which in some cases is used to indicate a vowel, an oa like in boat, or an oo like in book.
Again skip 49 letters after that waav and we get a reesh, an R, and again with a skip of 49 we get a hey, an H.
Together that makes T-O-R-H, = Torah.
The same thing we see in the second book of the Torah, Exodus. There, from the first tav jumping 49 letters, we get again Torah.
In the fourth book we see Torah with the same skip, but now spelled backwards: H-R-O-T. And in the fifth book, Deuteronomy, we again see the word Torah spelled backwards, from a hey in the beginning of the chapter, and from there every 49th letter.
So in the first two books we see Torah spelled straight, and in the last two of the five books of the Torah we see Torah spelled backwards. And in the third, the middle book, we don't see Torah encoded.
However, wat we see there, from the first yot, with a skip of seven, is the four-lettered name of God Y-H-W-H.
So the words Torah encoded in the first two and the last two books of the Torah, are facing the name of God.
Another interesting easy to check code is in the beginning of Genesis 2, this text is recited by every religious Jew on Friday night, for the sanctification of the shabbat. Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array.
2By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. 3Then God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.
When from the first yot in this text you count seven letters, and then again seven, and again, then you get Y-S-R-A-L = ISRAEL.
There is no debate necessary about these codes, because everybody can check them out, they are there. They are a fact.
And of course there are much deeper, longer, and more mind blowing codes.
The Torah codes just refuse to die. Peer reviewed articles keep on being published about them. They are here to stay.


"The only reality is mind and observations."

Richard Conn Henry, professor Johns Hopkin department of physics

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Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2259 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 6 of 139 (721256)
03-05-2014 4:59 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by AZPaul3
03-05-2014 2:24 PM


You ignore the overwhelming body of evidence that your bible codes are false and can be duplicated in many other works your god had nothing to do in creating ... unless you think both Melville and Tolstoy are gods.
Bs'd
Please show me that "overwhelming body of evidence".
I have shown you the codes, they are there for everybody to see.
Now show me comparable codes in any other text.


"The only reality is mind and observations."

Richard Conn Henry, professor Johns Hopkin department of physics

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by AZPaul3, posted 03-05-2014 2:24 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by AZPaul3, posted 03-05-2014 6:13 PM Eliyahu has replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2259 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 11 of 139 (721270)
03-05-2014 11:19 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Dr Adequate
03-05-2014 10:46 PM


Butevenifwes
upposethatal
lthesethings
likeyou'vede
scribedweret
heresultofan
intelligents
tunttohideor
burywordsins
ubtlewaysinc
ludedintoBib
licaltexts,I
stillwonderw
hyyouwouldth
inkthiswasut
terlydivine.
Bywhatsignco
uldweallconc
ludethatthis
literaturewa
sdesignedbyt
heOmnipotent
insteadofade
terminedman?
Butperhapsyo
udoubtthatac
leverchapcou
ldevermanage
suchathing.T
hisparagraph
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tyeshecould.
Bs'd
Yes, I mean something like that, but then woven into an existing text that actually makes sense.
So show me.


"The only reality is mind and observations."

Richard Conn Henry, professor Johns Hopkin department of physics

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-05-2014 10:46 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-05-2014 11:37 PM Eliyahu has replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2259 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 12 of 139 (721271)
03-05-2014 11:24 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by AZPaul3
03-05-2014 6:13 PM


Re: This is not real
You didn't even bother with the source I provided, did you.
Here's another for you to ignore. Be sure not to look through all the links at the bottom.
Bs'd
I'm not asking for links, I'm asking examples of codes, worked into an existing text. Since the claim is that are found in "War and Peace", and in "Moby Dick", they cannot be so hard to find.
You really are an imbecilic silly little excuse for a jew, aren't you. Your rabbis must cringe with embarrassment every time you show up on Shabbat.
Nobody is perfect.


"The only reality is mind and observations."

Richard Conn Henry, professor Johns Hopkin department of physics

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by AZPaul3, posted 03-05-2014 6:13 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by AZPaul3, posted 03-06-2014 7:01 AM Eliyahu has replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2259 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 15 of 139 (721275)
03-06-2014 12:21 AM


Bs'd
The codes I showed you guys, four or five lettered words with a skip between 7 and 50, can. with a bit of patience, be integrated in a text. No divine intervention needed for that one. Still, they are good examples to show that the codes are there, because everybody can check it out for himself. Also, the myth about the Bible that the shepherds were laying around the campfire at night, being bored, and decided to put some old myths on paper, is with the existence of those codes shown to be wrong. There definitely is something going on with that text. That's for sure. That's why the Bible codes don't wanna die, because they are right there, alive and kicking.
So now time for some more serious stuff. For this I have to give some background information, for the sake of those who were raised without any knowledge of their Biblical heritage.
The Hebrew Bible, by Jews called Tanach, by Christians called Old Testament, contains a book called Esther. It's about an ugly theme, a theme that unfortunately crops up time and again throughout history, the story of a ruler who decides that today is a good day to start exterminating all the Jews.
The Jews were exiled by the Babylonians, and deported to Babel. There a high placed ruler asked and received from the king permission to murder all the Jews. But there was the queen Esther, a Jewess herself, who managed, with the help of the Almighty of course, to throw a spoke in the wheel of the evil Haman, who wanted to murder all the Jews. The end was all good for the Jews, Haman and his whole family were slaughtered, together with a lot of people who came to murder the Jews, and the fear of the Jews was upon the land. People who want to see that whole original story can look HERE I can recommend it, nice story, intrigue, violence, humor, and only ten chapters long.
Anyway, the Jews are known for preserving their holy books with an accuracy unmatched by anybody else on the whole earth. No books of more than 2000 years old have been preserved so intact as the Jewish holy books. The Torah, the most Holy part of the Hebrew Bible, is transmitted through the ages, over a time period of 3300 years with an astonishing degree of accuracy. There are very many rules that apply to the copying process of Torah scrolls: They may only be written on parchment of kosher animals, which must be sewn together with tendons of kosher animals. It may only be written by a Jew, dressed in a Jewish garment, in a state of ritual purity, which means that, amongst other things, he must wash himself in a ritual bath. Even his state of mind is subjected to certain rulings. The whole manuscript must be ruled before it is written upon, when three words are written without ruling, the whole manuscript is disqualified and must be buried. The ink may only be black, prepared according to an ancient recipe. The Torah scroll may only be copied from another authentic scroll, and absolutely no deviation is allowed. Absolutely no words may be written without first looking to the example. The length of each column must be between 48 and 60 rules, and the width must be 30 letters. Between the letters must be a space as wide as a hair, between the paragraphs a space of nine letters, between the books a space of three rules. Calculations have been made how many letters there are in the whole Torah, which letter is the middle, how many letters there are in every book of the Torah, how many times certain words and even letters appear in the text. And there are many, many more rules for copying Torah scrolls that are still in effect, up to this day. No other religion had such an extremely precise way of copying their holy texts. This shows the enormous respect that the Jewish people have for the sacred text, and this is the reason that the text is handed down through the millennia with an extreme grade of accuracy.
Thanks to this, we know that the book of Esther has only 12,111 letters. Not more, not less, but exactly 12,111 letters. Actually, the words book of Esther, is not correct. The Jews hold on to their ancient custom, and read on Purim, the day these events are being recalled an celebrated, from a scroll, and not from a book.
And now the code. It just happens to be so that the word esther pops up in the Torah (the Torah is the first five books of the Tanach; Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy, that is the most holy part of the Jewish Bible) only once, and that is in Genesis 4:14.
Now, if in that selfsame verse where that word esther appears, you take the first regular mem (not a mem at the end of a word, which has a different form) and from there you skip 12,111 letters, then you get a gimel, a G. Skip from there another 12,111 letters, and a lamed (L) will appear. Another 12,111 letters further a tav (T) will appear, and that makes together M-G-L-T, which is the Hebrew word megilat. Megilah means scroll, and megilat means scroll of.
The scroll with the book of Esther on it is called megilat Esther, which means the scroll of Esther, or Esther scroll. So the only place in the Torah where the word esther appears, there is coded with a skip of 12,111, the amount of letters in the book of Esther, the word scroll, which together makes Esther scroll.
Isn't that amazing?
Edited by Eliyahu, : No reason given.


"The only reality is mind and observations."

Richard Conn Henry, professor Johns Hopkin department of physics

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Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2259 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 24 of 139 (721312)
03-06-2014 1:45 PM


Bs'd
And there is more to this story. But for that some more background information is needed.
The villain of the Esther story is the evil Haman. He was a descendant of Agag, the king of the Amalekites: After these things King Ahasverus promoted Haman the Agagite, the son of Hammedatha
Esther 3:1
Agag was, as explained before, the king of the Amalekites: And he took Agag the king of the Amal′ekites alive 1 Sam 15:8. That king Agag of Amalek, is the only Amalakite king we know by name.
The Amelekites were an unpleasant people, with which the Jews had a difficult relationship. When the Jews went out of Egypt, Amalek attacked the Jews: Then came Am′alek and fought with Israel at Reph′idim. 9And Moses said to Joshua, Choose for us men, and go out, fight with Am′alek; tomorrow I will stand on the top of the hill with the rod of God in my hand. 10So Joshua did as Moses told him, and fought with Am′alek; and Moses, Aaron, and Hur went up to the top of the hill. 11Whenever Moses held up his hand, Israel prevailed; and whenever he lowered his hand, Am′alek prevailed. 12But Moses’ hands grew weary; so they took a stone and put it under him, and he sat upon it, and Aaron and Hur held up his hands, one on one side, and the other on the other side; so his hands were steady until the going down of the sun. 13And Joshua mowed down Am′alek and his people with the edge of the sword.
14And the Lord said to Moses, Write this as a memorial in a book and recite it in the ears of Joshua, that I will utterly blot out the remembrance of Am′alek from under heaven. 15And Moses built an altar and called the name of it, The Lord is my banner, 16saying, A hand upon the banner of the Lord! The Lord will have war with Am′alek from generation to generation.
So the Jews have a holy war with Amalek, to wipe them all out: Therefore when the Lord your God has given you rest from all your enemies round about, in the land which the Lord your God gives you for an inheritance to possess, you shall blot out the remembrance of Am′alek from under heaven; do not forget
Deut 25:19.
And Amalek is on an unholy trip to wipe out the Jews.
So there is a certain tension between the Jews and Amalek, and the story of the book Esther is just another episode in the war between Israel and Amalek.
We found megilat Esther encoded in the book of Genesis. Now the fact of the matter is that in Genesis the name Amalek appears three times. First in Genesis 14:7; and they conquered the whole territory of the Amalekites.
Amelek is mentioned further in Gen 36, verses 12 and 16. Amalek is written with ayin - mem - lamed - koef, A-M-L-K. Now if we jump from the first time Amalek appears in Gen 14, from the first letter ayin of Amalek, and we skip 12,111 letters, then we get a mem. Skip another 12,111 letters, and we get a lamed. Skip another 12,111 letters, and we get a koef, making together the name Amalek. So from the first letter of the first time Amalek is written in Genesis, the name Amalek is encoded with a skip of 12,111, the amount of letters of the book Esther. And the lest koef of the encoded name Amalek, is the same koef which is the last letter of the second time that the name Amalek appears in Genesis, in chapter 36 vers 12.
Isn't that amazing?
And there is the third time that Amalek is written in Genesis, in chapter 36 vers 16. And there it doesn't just say Amalek, it says aluf Amalek, that means chief Amalek. And we know the name of only one king of Amalek, and that is Agag.
Now the word chief, aluf, is written with aleph, lamed, waav, phe. And if we jump from that first alef 12,111 letters, we get a gimel. Skip another 12,111 letters, and we get another gimel, making A-G-G: Agag.
Isn't that amazing?


"The only reality is mind and observations."

Richard Conn Henry, professor Johns Hopkin department of physics

Replies to this message:
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Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2259 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 31 of 139 (721376)
03-06-2014 10:39 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Tangle
03-06-2014 1:59 PM


Not even going t start reading that until you've answered the people that are calling you out on this garbage.
Quit preaching; it's really, really tedious, harms whatever feeble argument you might have had and it's going to get you banned.
Bs'd
Nobody is as blind as he who doens't want to see.


"The only reality is mind and observations."

Richard Conn Henry, professor Johns Hopkin department of physics

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Tangle, posted 03-06-2014 1:59 PM Tangle has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Coyote, posted 03-06-2014 10:42 PM Eliyahu has replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2259 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 33 of 139 (721382)
03-06-2014 10:44 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Dr Adequate
03-05-2014 11:37 PM


.
Edited by Eliyahu, : No reason given.


"The only reality is mind and observations."

Richard Conn Henry, professor Johns Hopkin department of physics

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-05-2014 11:37 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2259 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 34 of 139 (721385)
03-06-2014 10:50 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Coyote
03-06-2014 10:42 PM


Do you not see yourself among the blind?
You are clinging to old tribal myths in spite of the evidence from the real world.
That seems blind to me.
Bs'd
As I have shown, there is A LOT more to these tribal myths than meets the eye.
And as I have shown, it is that what you think is the real world that doesn't exsist.


"The only reality is mind and observations."

Richard Conn Henry, professor Johns Hopkin department of physics

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Coyote, posted 03-06-2014 10:42 PM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
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Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2259 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 36 of 139 (721395)
03-06-2014 11:10 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by NoNukes
03-05-2014 2:06 PM


How about a pointer to this stuff.
Claims of this type, if they are not to be dismissed as numerology at best, have a high threshold to meet before they will be considered credible.
Given that we are in the science forums, I would have expected that the vetting process would be a little heavier on the evidence side.
Bs'd
The evidence side was taken care of when the Great Rabbi's Experiment was published in Statistical Science.
Normally in science, a chance of 1 in 20 is taken as not te be coincidence anymore, for instance in testing medication.
For publication in Statistical Science the bar was put a lot higher, they demanded that the codes would be there with a maximum chance of 1 in 1000.
The Great Rabbi's Experiment beat those odds with a factor 50. The chances of the names of those rabbi's being coded together with their date of birth or death was smaller than 1 in 50,000.
So after six years of brooding on the codes, and after calling in the worlds foremost expert on statistics who delved into it, and who couldn't find a flaw, it was published.
That would take care of the science part.
Edited by Eliyahu, : No reason given.


"The only reality is mind and observations."

Richard Conn Henry, professor Johns Hopkin department of physics

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by NoNukes, posted 03-05-2014 2:06 PM NoNukes has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Coyote, posted 03-06-2014 11:29 PM Eliyahu has replied
 Message 40 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-06-2014 11:56 PM Eliyahu has replied
 Message 46 by Taq, posted 03-07-2014 2:33 AM Eliyahu has replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2259 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 37 of 139 (721399)
03-06-2014 11:24 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by AZPaul3
03-05-2014 6:13 PM


Re: This is real
You didn't even bother with the source I provided, did you.
Here's another for you to ignore. Be sure not to look through all the links at the bottom.
And yet another with lots of links to ignore, especially the "Expert Opinions" link toward the bottom where there are a dozen links to studies each with links to more studies. You want overwhelming? You got it.
Bs'd
Just give me something that compares to the Esther code I gave you, a code with a constantly repeating very signifiicant number, like 12,111 in the purim code.
It just doesn't exist in any other text.


"The only reality is mind and observations."

Richard Conn Henry, professor Johns Hopkin department of physics

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by AZPaul3, posted 03-05-2014 6:13 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by AZPaul3, posted 03-07-2014 1:38 AM Eliyahu has replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2259 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 41 of 139 (721416)
03-07-2014 12:56 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by Dr Adequate
03-06-2014 11:56 PM


Let's just add statistics to the list of things you don't understand and move on, eh?
Bs'd
I might not understand it, but at the peer reviewed journal Statiscal Science, there they do understand it.
And like I said, after six years of brooding on the codes, and after calling in the worlds foremost expert on statistics who delved into it, and who couldn't find a flaw, it was published.
That should take care of the statistics part.


"The only reality is mind and observations."

Richard Conn Henry, professor Johns Hopkin department of physics

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-06-2014 11:56 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-07-2014 2:19 PM Eliyahu has replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2259 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 42 of 139 (721417)
03-07-2014 1:02 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by Coyote
03-06-2014 11:29 PM


And I have been assured, by another believer, that the odds against evolution are 1720.
From this, do you see why we tend not to trust anything true believers say?
Bs'd
No, I don't see. You as an evolutionist should believe that right away.
But anyway, the chances of a human being forming by blind chance, as you think, are not 1 in 1720, but 1 in 10^40,000.
Edited by Eliyahu, : No reason given.


"The only reality is mind and observations."

Richard Conn Henry, professor Johns Hopkin department of physics

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Coyote, posted 03-06-2014 11:29 PM Coyote has not replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2259 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 43 of 139 (721418)
03-07-2014 1:22 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by AZPaul3
03-06-2014 7:01 AM


Re: This is not real
The links contain the information on the Tolstoy and Melville codes as well as other information that debunks your divine cryptography.
As you said about the codes applies also to their refutation. "There is no debate necessary about these codes, because everybody can check them out, they are there. They are a fact." So check them out. They are a fact. Your holy protocols are bunk.
The evidence has been provided, Eli. All you have to do is click a button and read.
Bs'd
I did, and I saw codes in for instance, Moby Dick.
However, those codes don't have any statistical relevance, nor does McKay claim so.
If you have an almost unlimited amount of terms and variations of a name to start searching for, and the skip you can use varies from very small to very large, then you are bound to find something.
But, like I said, the statistical significance of that hovers around zero.
However, like I said, for the Great Rabbi's Experiment, a maximum chance of 1 in 1000 was demanded for publication, and a chance of less than 1 in 50,000 was delivered.
That is statistically significant.
The Esther code, works with a skip of 12,111, which is a very significant number, because it is the amount of letters in the Esther scroll.
Really significant numbers are hard to find, and you won't find more than a handfull for a given subject, so then your chances of finding anything go down dramatically.
And when that selfsame significant number can be used several times more for the same subject, like it is the case in the Esther codes, then the chances of that happening by coincidence become astronomically small.
So that is the difference between the Moby Dick codes, and the Torah codes.
If you don't believe me, just give me something like the Esther code in Moby Dick. Codes being found with a very significant skip, which repeats itself a few times.
It just doesn't exist .
Here on this page http://cs.anu.edu.au/~bdm/dilugim/mobydet.txt McKay gives some skip numbers,
Name Start Skip
IGANDHI 13258 102857
MOAWAD 44533 90073
812368 -116726
TROTSKY 836052 -61095
MLKING 234760 -26026
DOLLFUSS 787845 19000
SSIRHAN 4547 127000
89795 41773
499443 68585
528373 -12582
KENNEDY 93063 13798
888633 -7616
93063 13798
LINCOLN 642829 -1450
RABIN 327517 -4
As you can see they are totally irrelevant to the subject, usually very big, and not a single one repeats itself.
So no statiscal significance whatsoever. Nor is that claimed by McKay.
So bringing those codes is an exercise in futility.
This in contradistinction to the Torah codes, which are statistically highly significant.
Edited by Eliyahu, : No reason given.


"The only reality is mind and observations."

Richard Conn Henry, professor Johns Hopkin department of physics

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by AZPaul3, posted 03-06-2014 7:01 AM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by AZPaul3, posted 03-07-2014 9:16 AM Eliyahu has replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2259 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 45 of 139 (721420)
03-07-2014 1:57 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by AZPaul3
03-07-2014 1:38 AM


Re: This is real
Just give me something that compares to the Esther code I gave you, a code with a constantly repeating very signifiicant number, like 12,111 in the purim code.
Why should we?
Bs'd
In order to prove your point.
Your junk's already been debunked times a thousand.
No it is not.
What has been shown, is that statistically non-significant codes exist in other big texts.
No statistically significant codes have been shown in any other text than the Torah.
We do not need to entertain any further presumptions of your delusions. Any further nonsense numerology from you only shows your desperation, your cognitive dissonance, at having watched one of your personal pillars of faith ground into dust by truth. The bible codes have been shown to be false
The Bible codes have not been shown to be false.
To begin with, as I have shown, as everybody can ascertain for himself, the codes are there. Like the "Torah" codes in 4 of the 5 books in the Torah, with in the middle book the name of God coded.
Something like that is not found in any other religious text, or any non-religious text, except maybe the BS text of Adequate, but that is made especailly for that purpose, and does not serve any other purpose.
And the codes in the Torah are statiscally very significant, which is proven by the fact that peer reviewed publications are coming forth about them.
The Purim code is an example of a code with a highly significant skip which repeats itself three times, which is extremely unlikely to happen by chance.


"The only reality is mind and observations."

Richard Conn Henry, professor Johns Hopkin department of physics

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by AZPaul3, posted 03-07-2014 1:38 AM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
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