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Author Topic:   If our sun is second or third generation, does this not conflict with Genesis ?
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 99 of 231 (616423)
05-21-2011 8:57 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by granpa
05-21-2011 12:11 AM


Re: you're going to have to "Stuudy Genesis" even more than that.
granpa writes:
You are right, it doesnt say that in the hebrew, but why assume that the story was originally told in hebrew. If it really is the story of genesis then it goes all the way back to Adam.
I don't think anyone believes that the creation story was handed down from Adam's day. Adam would not have seen most of it.
granpa writes:
Its called 'extrapolating' not 'making stuff up'.
Extrapolating generally is making things up.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by granpa, posted 05-21-2011 12:11 AM granpa has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 106 of 231 (616460)
05-22-2011 2:32 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by bluescat48
05-22-2011 11:28 AM


Re: you're going to have to "Stuudy Genesis" even more than that.
bluescat48 writes:
of course, the stories it is based on might
That is what I was implying.
None of that supports the hypothesis or "extrapolation" that the original stories said that "round things" rather than lights were created on day four.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by bluescat48, posted 05-22-2011 11:28 AM bluescat48 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by bluescat48, posted 05-22-2011 5:09 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 152 of 231 (720350)
02-21-2014 11:50 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by Eliyahu
02-21-2014 8:58 AM


Posers just pose I suppose...
For thousands of years the joke was: "How could there be light when the sun was created later??"
No, you are wrong. I'm surprised that nobody has pointed out your exact error.
The question or joke is not whether any light existed before the sun or whether the sun is the source of all light throughout creation. It would be easy to postulate a source of light other than the sun.
Instead, the question was and is what was the source of Day and Night on earth before the Sun and Moon were created on day four. Yeah, there was electomagnetic radiation in the visible portion of the spectrum present in the universe before the sun or stars existed, but not such that the light could create day and night or morning and evening on a non existence earth. For that, both the sun and a rotating earth with an atmosphere are necessary.
And guess what. You have yet to answer that question in a way compatible with science. The scientific answer is that the Earth did not even exist until the sun was billions of years old.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : Grrr apostrophe errors

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by Eliyahu, posted 02-21-2014 8:58 AM Eliyahu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by Eliyahu, posted 02-22-2014 2:22 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 156 of 231 (720394)
02-22-2014 3:22 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by Eliyahu
02-22-2014 2:22 PM


Re: Posers just pose I suppose...
Was that the question? I hear that for the first time in my life.
Not surprising. Do you really think that scientists were asking how could there be photons in the universe before the sun was created? Really?
What you have done is set up a doofus question that noone would ask and claim to have solved some profound issue. Well you missed the boat.
Well, some source of light, and a rotating earth is enough.
Duh! So what was the source? You did claim to have the answer to the question of the ages.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by Eliyahu, posted 02-22-2014 2:22 PM Eliyahu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by Eliyahu, posted 02-23-2014 1:51 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 157 of 231 (720396)
02-22-2014 3:34 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by Eliyahu
02-22-2014 2:31 PM


Re: Time is relative
Einstein claimed to have proven that the universe was eternal.
No, that's not true. Einstein believed in a steady state universe and he attempted to model such a universe using general relativity, but he made no proof. The truth about the universe was demonstrated during Einstein's life time.
It would be best if when you were making stuff up, you avoided doing that with physics or the history of physics because you will be too easily caught out.
So there are plenty of places to be found in the universe where less then six days have passed by since creation.
Wrong. There are no such places and your faux relativity spouting does not suggest that there are.
But let's pretend that such a placed did exist way off in some distant galaxy-sized black hole 13.7 billion light years from earth. Is it your position that such a place is what the writer of Genesis was contemplating? Surely not.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by Eliyahu, posted 02-22-2014 2:31 PM Eliyahu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by Eliyahu, posted 02-23-2014 6:47 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 161 of 231 (720413)
02-23-2014 2:41 AM
Reply to: Message 160 by Eliyahu
02-23-2014 1:51 AM


Re: Posers just pose I suppose...
What was it that was created by the big bang? Matter? Or light?
What was created? That's an interesting question, and I'm not sure I can answer it. The question might well by metaphysical rather than physical. What does seem clear though is that matter and energy were likely repeatedly converted from one to the other in the very early universe, and at least some of the energy was in the form of electromagnetic energy.
Of course during the period of time when the e&M energy of the big bang was in the visible light spectrum, neither the sun nor the earth even existed. Currently the residual radiation is in the microwave region of the spectrum. Surely you are not suggesting that the earth was illuminated by visible big bang radiation?
I don't see how any of that helps explain morning light on a non-existent planet, but please feel free to make up more Star Trek physics. It's good for a laugh, but it's destroying your credibility.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by Eliyahu, posted 02-23-2014 1:51 AM Eliyahu has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 166 of 231 (720435)
02-23-2014 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by Eliyahu
02-23-2014 6:47 AM


Re: Time is relative
I explained in message 151 what time is used for the first six days of the creation story.
Since you did not write message 151, I am going to presume you meant message 155 written in response to message 151. You consider that to be an explanation. But I find it to be full of made up science. It explains only what you believe and not anything real.
"So then the earth was not yet formed, had not yet been created."
Of course according to Genesis the earth had life on it, and there was day and night on the earth before the sun, moon, or stars even existed. Clearly the non-formed state of the earth was over by the end of day three. None of your mumbo jumbo about different times on the sun fixes that.
The ancient Jewish commentators said that those days were days of 24 hours, the six days as the days of our working week.
But, so they said, those six days contain all the secrets and ages of the universe.
The question arises: When those days only lasted 24 hours, then how could they contain all the secrets and ages of the universe?
Your question and your idea about 'secrets of the universe' being not containable in any number of days is not even Biblical. Forget the criticisms about your physics. You say essentially 'let's question God's power' and then finding it lacking let's make up some stuff.
It seems much more likely that Genesis was written by someone who simply wasn't present during the big bang or the creation of flora and fauna and who knew jack about what happened.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by Eliyahu, posted 02-23-2014 6:47 AM Eliyahu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 173 by Eliyahu, posted 02-24-2014 7:44 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 167 of 231 (720452)
02-24-2014 12:18 AM
Reply to: Message 163 by Eliyahu
02-23-2014 6:44 AM


Re: Mythology...
Ah, when you say something it is science, and when I say something it is not science.
And you think that is a serious argument in a discussion??
You say stuff that is clearly wrong. But when your errors are pointed out you don't respond. That's why the arguments are not serious. We cannot get you to do anything but reassert your conclusion regardless of the flaws in its underpinning.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by Eliyahu, posted 02-23-2014 6:44 AM Eliyahu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by Eliyahu, posted 02-24-2014 7:33 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 168 of 231 (720453)
02-24-2014 2:07 AM
Reply to: Message 165 by Percy
02-23-2014 9:37 AM


Re: Mythology...
Time flows at the same rate in all inertial reference frames. We may observe time flowing more slowly in other inertial reference frames that are in motion or are accelerating with respect to our own, but within those other reference frames time flows at the same rate as within our own.
While that's true, Eliyahu has suggested that those other places include extreme gravity wells, and the story for those things is quite different than for inertial frames. For gravitational dilation, both the observer at the top of the gravity and the one at the bottom agree that the latter's clock runs more slowly.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by Percy, posted 02-23-2014 9:37 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 169 by Percy, posted 02-24-2014 7:11 AM NoNukes has replied
 Message 174 by herebedragons, posted 02-24-2014 7:49 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 180 of 231 (720496)
02-24-2014 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 173 by Eliyahu
02-24-2014 7:44 AM


Re: Time is relative
NoNukes writes:
Of course according to Genesis the earth had life on it, and there was day and night on the earth before the sun, moon, or stars even existed. Clearly the non-formed state of the earth was over by the end of day three. None of your mumbo jumbo about different times on the sun fixes that.
I'm not saying the earth didn't exist on day three, I'm saying that until the end of day six Genesis counts with cosmic standard time.
So the earth did exist before the sun was created according to you and Genesis. Yet there were mornings and evenings even before day 3.
Just yelling out cosmic time may allow you to claim that there was some time compression, but it does not allow you to change the order of causally connected events. Relativity does not allow that.
Note that I'm not bothering with the dispute about the length of the six days. I'm taking issue with the events described as occurring in those days.
So you have yet to explain the 'morning and evening on earth, and in some cases on a void formless earth, without a sun.
Please tell me what part of the science is not correct.
Is it your position that I have not pointed out at least some of your errors? It is not as though posts disappear after you and I make them.
In the interest of getting a discussion started, why don't you describe the physics of a place that meets these requirements:
Eliyahu writes:
And if we are talking about black holes, with and ENORMOUS gravitational force, then less than six days have passed there since creation.
So there are plenty of places to be found in the universe where less then six days have passed by since creation.
So you know about plenty of black holes that were created at time close to creation and that still exist right now? Black holes created a week or two after creation could certainly not have this property.
I submit that this is something you made up.
And then you propose that the author of Genesis was writing about time viewed from such a place? Or is it that God operated from there?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by Eliyahu, posted 02-24-2014 7:44 AM Eliyahu has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 181 of 231 (720528)
02-24-2014 9:55 PM
Reply to: Message 169 by Percy
02-24-2014 7:11 AM


Re: Mythology...
Percy writes:
but I included accelerating reference frames, which are the same as gravity wells.
Correction noted. I seem to recall us having a prior discussion about this.
Elihayu also hasn't seemed to have considered that if he were correct that the Big Bang and the formation of the earth were simultaneous
I did not notice Elihayu insisting that they were created simultaneously. I'm not saying that he did not. But my own opinion is that requiring such a thing is a hyper (read 'hyper' as 'faux') literal, and unjustified interpretation. It seems unlikely that the words are saying anything about the order or coincidence of the creation of the universe and the earth. I don't think 'in the beginning' requires such strict timing. It is enough that those were allegedly among the very first things that happened.
Not that some folks are not capable of insisting on extreme interpretations. For example, A. Schlafly insists that when the Bible says that the centurion's servant was healed in 'that selfsame hour' after Jesus spoke we are presented with an example of instantaneous action at a distance that disproves general relativity.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : Four vs. for? I'm an idiot.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by Percy, posted 02-24-2014 7:11 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 202 by Percy, posted 02-25-2014 11:14 AM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 201 of 231 (720610)
02-25-2014 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 182 by Eliyahu
02-24-2014 11:21 PM


Re: Mythology...
And you don't even know the the universe doesn't exist?? I mean; it is not like that is a recent discovery or something, science discovered it almost a hundred years ago, and you don't know about it?
If only Galileo had met you.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by Eliyahu, posted 02-24-2014 11:21 PM Eliyahu has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 203 of 231 (720620)
02-25-2014 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 199 by Percy
02-25-2014 10:06 AM


Re: Mythology...
That's what she said, but what she was thinking was, "If I tell him he's right, maybe he'll shut up."
ROFL!
Sometimes, when the straight man is as good as Eliyahu, the comic followup is almost superfluous. When I read Eliyahu's post, I could almost see the woman's eyes roll up in her head. But then Eli went to the bathroom and the woman and her husband vanished into non-reality. And then I
ABE:
Seriously, if Eliyahu's point relies on the existence not existing, I don't see the value in probing his thinking too deeply.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by Percy, posted 02-25-2014 10:06 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 205 of 231 (721153)
03-04-2014 9:52 AM
Reply to: Message 204 by Eliyahu
03-04-2014 7:28 AM


Re: I study Genesis and the rest of the Torah non-stop.
What I say is, that the fact that every old culture has a flood myth, that that is the proof A worldwide flood really happened.
1. That would not be proof.
2. You cannot establish that every old culture has a flood myth anyway.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by Eliyahu, posted 03-04-2014 7:28 AM Eliyahu has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 209 of 231 (726061)
05-06-2014 9:38 AM
Reply to: Message 207 by Blue
05-05-2014 11:28 PM


Re: Creation of light
I would presume the darkness was carbon dioxide, methane, etc filling the atmosphere as is shown in Science.
Aren't both of those gasses invisible?
. Later verses that discuss creation of the stars, lights, etc are mere past tense grammatically.
So day four does not come after day two?
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by Blue, posted 05-05-2014 11:28 PM Blue has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 214 by Blue, posted 05-06-2014 3:50 PM NoNukes has replied

  
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