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Author Topic:   Ukraine's future
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 16 of 65 (720997)
03-02-2014 11:23 AM


President Obama told the Ukrainians that if they liked their country, they could keep it.
Hmmmm.

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Theodoric, posted 03-02-2014 12:06 PM Coyote has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 17 of 65 (720998)
03-02-2014 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Coyote
03-02-2014 11:23 AM


resident Obama told the Ukrainians that if they liked their country, they could keep it.
If you are trying to make a point or say something maybe you should actually post something that means something.
Please tell us what you are referring to in this comment. I understand that you and the other wingnuts are trying to make some sort of sly, witty comparison to the ACA, but you come off as petty, and ignorant. Show me the text of Obama making this statement and what it means.
Still no solutions?
Back up your attacks with some argument and substance. If not be a typical wingnut and whine and bitch.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Coyote, posted 03-02-2014 11:23 AM Coyote has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by NoNukes, posted 03-02-2014 1:07 PM Theodoric has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 65 (720999)
03-02-2014 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Theodoric
03-02-2014 12:06 PM


Show me the text of Obama making this statement and what it means.
This is the rare instance when one of Coyote's references makes sense without additional explanation and is funny.
Obama has already apologized for making the promise Coyote refers to and also made some modifications to ACA to address some of the problem.
Here is a link for you:
PolitiFact | Barack Obama promises you can keep your health insurance, but there's no guarantee
Of course it's not as if his criticisms of Obama on the Ukraine situation have any substance. But that's par. And the reason for dragging up an irrelevant topic.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Theodoric, posted 03-02-2014 12:06 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Theodoric, posted 03-02-2014 1:15 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 19 of 65 (721000)
03-02-2014 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by NoNukes
03-02-2014 1:07 PM


oh I understand the reference. just wondering how Coyote thinks it is relevant to Ukraine.
It just reinforces that wingnuts only have soundbites and questionably witty retorts. No substance, no solutions.
As all wingnuts Coyote suffers from Obama derangement syndrome.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by NoNukes, posted 03-02-2014 1:07 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(3)
Message 20 of 65 (721002)
03-02-2014 1:30 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Coyote
03-01-2014 10:44 PM


Coyote writes:
Obama has already shown that he is weak and not even paying attention.
Good. A US president who isn't bent on world conquest is fine with me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Coyote, posted 03-01-2014 10:44 PM Coyote has not replied

Replies to this message:
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dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 21 of 65 (721005)
03-02-2014 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Theodoric
03-02-2014 10:12 AM


It's the EEU, stupid.
Putin is playing a very dangerous game. But I think he has forgotten that in international politics you want to play the long game.
Perhaps he is playing the long game and our problem is that we don't know what that long game is. I certainly haven't seen it mentioned here yet.
The Eurasian Economic Union is Russia's answer to the EU. It's still in the planning and formative stages, but it's considered Putin sees it as his legacy. It will be comprised of most of the republics of the USSR and is considered to be an attempt to re-establish the USSR -- from the Wikipedia article:
quote:
The United States has expressed its opposition to the Eurasian Union, claiming it is "an attempt" to re-establish a USSR-type union among the former Soviet republics. In December 2012, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton claimed "It’s not going to be called that {USSR}. It’s going to be called customs union, it will be called the Eurasian Union and all of that, but let’s make no mistake about it. We know what the goal is and we are trying to figure out effective ways to slow down or prevent it".
I first heard of the EEU a week ago on NPR during an All Things Considered interview with Timothy Snyder, a professor of history at Yale and author of Bloodlands: Europe between Hitler and Stalin, about his recent article on fascism, Russia and Ukraine -- (What It Means When The 'Wolf Cries Wolf': Fascism In Ukraine, with both audio and transcript). Much of his interview was about how the EEU is to be based on aspects of both fascism and communism, combined the parts of both systems that are seen to work and placing it in opposition to the West's liberal democracy. They are embracing conservative views and setting themselves up as holding the moral high ground over the EU:
quote:
SIEGEL: You cite a Russian who is obviously against the Ukrainian protests as claiming that if Ukraine joined the European Union, they would then have to recognize same-sex marriage, that's part of the package of being European. That's the kind of argument that's being used on the Russian side here, you say.
SNYDER: Yeah, and this is really interesting and really important, I think. What's happened is that Russian society has become a little more conservative over the years. President Putin has recognized an opportunity there and has geared his domestic policy towards what some might see a far right social conservative agenda, where the discrimination of gays is front and center.
He's using that now not just in domestic policy but in foreign policy. So he's defining - Russian propaganda strangely enough also defines the opposition in Ukraine as either gay or subordinate to a European Union that is gay. The idea is that Western Europe, is decadent, and decadence includes sexual freedoms, which of course can't be allowed in Russia because they would destroy Russia's Christian civilization.
This is a kind of interesting global turn in Russian policy. It draws directly on American anti-gay Christians, who in fact have gone to Moscow to consult with President Putin about these issues. It's an attempt to create a kind of new ideology whereby Russia can have some moral standing in the world.
And it reaches out to far right groups in the U.S., and in Europe as well, and in particular it gives Eurasianism a kind of ideological backbone. What they're trying to say is that you Europeans have betrayed civilization. We Eurasians are the real Europeans because we stand for religion, and we stand for the discrimination of people who behave in a way which we don't regard as conventional.
SIEGEL: You also write that while Ukrainian authorities say the protestors are led by, or they are Nazis, they tell their own police that the Jews are actually running the protests in Kiev.
SNYDER: Yeah, I mean, this reveals the extent to which propagandists in Kiev and Moscow assume that we don't really pay attention. They think that if they tell us the protestors are Nazis, we'll be all confused, we'll scuttle around, we won't be able to formulate policy. And I think in some measure they're right.
I think we are quite - because of our perfectly legitimate convictions about the second world war, it's easy to manipulate us by referring to these things. At the same time, one of the ways to motivate violence against the protestors is to claim that they are associated with some outside force, whether those outsiders are gays or whether they're Jews.
And so in internal propaganda, the riot police are being told that the leaders of the opposition are Jews. So the same people are being defined as Nazis or as Jews depending on the circumstances.
Ideology aside, the Ukraine's oil, gas, and agricultural resources would make it an important member of the EEU, one that Putin cannot afford to allow to join the West instead. And warm-water ports are so important to the Russian navy that Putin cannot allow anything to endanger the Black Sea Fleet's ports in Crimea. Several centuries of Russian history, wherein they were repeatedly bulldozed by invading armies, has raised national defense and the defense of its borders to a form of national paranoia.
Russia has a lot of experience playing the long game. The US does not play the long game very well.
Edited by dwise1, : Added "here" to " I certainly haven't seen it mentioned here yet."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Theodoric, posted 03-02-2014 10:12 AM Theodoric has not replied

  
Diomedes
Member
Posts: 995
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013


Message 22 of 65 (721007)
03-02-2014 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by ringo
03-02-2014 1:30 PM


Good. A US president who isn't bent on world conquest is fine with me.
I would tend to agree. And honestly, if all this had occurred during the previous administration, we likely would have ended up attacking the wrong country.

This message is a reply to:
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1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 23 of 65 (721042)
03-03-2014 9:53 AM


Welcome back cold war
I think that I am bias when it comes to matters concerning Russia.
I am a cold war kid and propagandized against the red menace.
That being said I still do not trust Russia. The BS they pulled in
Georgia and now Ukraine is proof that Russia still has a cold war mentality when it comes to it's surrounding territory.
After reading everyones comments I get the impression that we all agree that this is most unfortunate and will be bad in what ever form it takes.
This is what I see happening. Nothing.
Russia will keep troops there and the rest of the world will bitch and moan. Ukraine will be forced to either defend itself or face occupation. Which technically has already occured.
The U.S. will condemn it and cut Russia out of the G8 but other than sanctions we will be the last ones to want a military confrontation with our old cold war enemies.

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Theodoric, posted 03-03-2014 10:08 AM 1.61803 has replied
 Message 26 by dronestar, posted 03-03-2014 10:34 AM 1.61803 has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 24 of 65 (721044)
03-03-2014 10:08 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by 1.61803
03-03-2014 9:53 AM


Re: Welcome back cold war
What else can we do?
War is not an option. Is it?

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by 1.61803, posted 03-03-2014 9:53 AM 1.61803 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by 1.61803, posted 03-03-2014 10:27 AM Theodoric has not replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 25 of 65 (721047)
03-03-2014 10:27 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Theodoric
03-03-2014 10:08 AM


Re: Welcome back cold war
Theodoric writes:
What else can we do?
War is not an option. Is it?
This is a mexican stand off to see who will blink first.
Russia is counting on the world not willing to risk war.
We are counting on Russia to not risk their economy and world standing.
It is not in the U.S.A. best interest to engage in yet another war.
After being at war for the last 13-14 years we simply would bankrupt the country even further.
Putin and President Obama will have to find a way for both sides to save face. Diplomacy is the only real option. imo.
But that is not to say Ukraine will stand by and be occupied like this. If they suffer more causalties at the hands of the Russian Federation I honestly do not know what the US and Nato would do. Also, there is the possibilty that Ukraine is just the beginning
of a new era of Russian land grabs.
Edited by 1.61803, : No reason given.

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Theodoric, posted 03-03-2014 10:08 AM Theodoric has not replied

  
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1407
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


(1)
Message 26 of 65 (721049)
03-03-2014 10:34 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by 1.61803
03-03-2014 9:53 AM


I'd prefer Ukraine be independent from Russia and Europe/NATO.
1.61803 writes:
That being said I still do not trust Russia. The BS they pulled in
Georgia and now Ukraine is proof that Russia still has a cold war mentality when it comes to it's surrounding territory.
I don't trust Russia either, however . . .
Why do you see the splinter in your brother's eye but not notice the log in your own eye?
The US/NATO has hundreds of military bases throughout the world. The bases encircle their enemies. (Thanks to Snowden we even know that the NSA encircles its own citizens.) Russia would prefer NATO and western influence not encroach/encircle them too.
Hegemony (and the cold war mentality) has many costs, both in lives and money. The usa has a military budget nearly EQUAL to the rest of the world combined. Is the cost worth it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by 1.61803, posted 03-03-2014 9:53 AM 1.61803 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by 1.61803, posted 03-03-2014 10:58 AM dronestar has replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 27 of 65 (721055)
03-03-2014 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by dronestar
03-03-2014 10:34 AM


Re: I'd prefer Ukraine be independent from Russia and Europe/NATO.
Hi dronester,
Why do you see the splinter in your brother's eye but not notice the log in your own eye?
I don't. I am aware of many of the evils that the U.S. perpetuated in the past and today.
But I believe the difference is the Ukraine is a free independent nation that wants to join the EU.
Mother Russian says "nyet!" What right does Russia have to occupy with military show of force in Ukraine's territory?
The U.S. has in the past attempted to replace other countries elections with pro U.S. sympathetic leaders.
We staged coups, we attempted assinations.
But the U.S. has never completley took them over and violated their independance. If that were the case then CUBA should be a territory of the U.S. and it clearly is not.
Also the world is a different place than the world of 17th century,
or 18th century or even the 20th century. Military territorial expansion is frowned upon.
So when it comes to scrutiny, the Russian Federation is looking like a bully right now.
Edited by 1.61803, : spelling.

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by dronestar, posted 03-03-2014 10:34 AM dronestar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by dronestar, posted 03-03-2014 3:56 PM 1.61803 has replied

  
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1407
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


(1)
Message 28 of 65 (721105)
03-03-2014 3:56 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by 1.61803
03-03-2014 10:58 AM


Orwellian baseline?
1.61803 writes:
What right does Russia have to occupy with military show of force in Ukraine's territory?
1. The usa didn't allow Cuba to have any Russian military bases in america's backyard, so why should Russia allow the Ukraine to have any NATO bases in Russia's backyard?
2. What right did america have to occupy with military show of force in Iraq's territory?
1.61803 writes:
But the U.S. has never completley took them over and violated [another country's] independance.
Are you kidding me?
1.61803 writes:
So when it comes to scrutiny, the Russian Federation is looking like a bully right now.
quote:
The US has been voted as the most significant threat to world peace in a survey across 68 different countries.
A global survey conducted by the Worldwide Independent Network and Gallup at the end of 2013 revealed strong animosity towards the US’s role as the world’s policeman. Citizens across over 60 nations were asked: Which country do you think is the greatest threat to peace in the world today?
The US topped the list, with 24 percent of people believing America to be the biggest danger to peace.
US the biggest threat to world peace in 2013 — poll RT World News
Russia occupying Ukraine IS a breach of international law and IS in direct, overt violation of international law. But for any american, especially Obama or Kerry to say it is, is the height of hypocrisy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by 1.61803, posted 03-03-2014 10:58 AM 1.61803 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by 1.61803, posted 03-04-2014 11:31 AM dronestar has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3292 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 29 of 65 (721113)
03-03-2014 6:27 PM


I don't care if Russia invades Ukraine with the intention of cannibalize Ukrainian babies, please holy virgin mary don't let the US send in troops. Let someone else take up the responsibility this time.

Replies to this message:
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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 30 of 65 (721121)
03-03-2014 8:41 PM



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