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Member (Idle past 1504 days) Posts: 2928 From: Lone Star State USA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Ukraine's future | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Coyote Member (Idle past 2106 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
President Obama told the Ukrainians that if they liked their country, they could keep it.
Hmmmm.
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9076 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.7 |
resident Obama told the Ukrainians that if they liked their country, they could keep it.
If you are trying to make a point or say something maybe you should actually post something that means something. Please tell us what you are referring to in this comment. I understand that you and the other wingnuts are trying to make some sort of sly, witty comparison to the ACA, but you come off as petty, and ignorant. Show me the text of Obama making this statement and what it means. Still no solutions? Back up your attacks with some argument and substance. If not be a typical wingnut and whine and bitch.Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Show me the text of Obama making this statement and what it means. This is the rare instance when one of Coyote's references makes sense without additional explanation and is funny. Obama has already apologized for making the promise Coyote refers to and also made some modifications to ACA to address some of the problem. Here is a link for you: PolitiFact | Barack Obama promises you can keep your health insurance, but there's no guarantee Of course it's not as if his criticisms of Obama on the Ukraine situation have any substance. But that's par. And the reason for dragging up an irrelevant topic.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9076 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.7
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oh I understand the reference. just wondering how Coyote thinks it is relevant to Ukraine.
It just reinforces that wingnuts only have soundbites and questionably witty retorts. No substance, no solutions. As all wingnuts Coyote suffers from Obama derangement syndrome.Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Coyote writes:
Good. A US president who isn't bent on world conquest is fine with me.
Obama has already shown that he is weak and not even paying attention.
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dwise1 Member Posts: 5930 Joined: Member Rating: 5.8 |
Putin is playing a very dangerous game. But I think he has forgotten that in international politics you want to play the long game.
Perhaps he is playing the long game and our problem is that we don't know what that long game is. I certainly haven't seen it mentioned here yet. The Eurasian Economic Union is Russia's answer to the EU. It's still in the planning and formative stages, but it's considered Putin sees it as his legacy. It will be comprised of most of the republics of the USSR and is considered to be an attempt to re-establish the USSR -- from the Wikipedia article:
quote:I first heard of the EEU a week ago on NPR during an All Things Considered interview with Timothy Snyder, a professor of history at Yale and author of Bloodlands: Europe between Hitler and Stalin, about his recent article on fascism, Russia and Ukraine -- (What It Means When The 'Wolf Cries Wolf': Fascism In Ukraine, with both audio and transcript). Much of his interview was about how the EEU is to be based on aspects of both fascism and communism, combined the parts of both systems that are seen to work and placing it in opposition to the West's liberal democracy. They are embracing conservative views and setting themselves up as holding the moral high ground over the EU: quote:Ideology aside, the Ukraine's oil, gas, and agricultural resources would make it an important member of the EEU, one that Putin cannot afford to allow to join the West instead. And warm-water ports are so important to the Russian navy that Putin cannot allow anything to endanger the Black Sea Fleet's ports in Crimea. Several centuries of Russian history, wherein they were repeatedly bulldozed by invading armies, has raised national defense and the defense of its borders to a form of national paranoia. Russia has a lot of experience playing the long game. The US does not play the long game very well. Edited by dwise1, : Added "here" to " I certainly haven't seen it mentioned here yet."
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Diomedes Member Posts: 995 From: Central Florida, USA Joined: |
Good. A US president who isn't bent on world conquest is fine with me. I would tend to agree. And honestly, if all this had occurred during the previous administration, we likely would have ended up attacking the wrong country.
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1.61803 Member (Idle past 1504 days) Posts: 2928 From: Lone Star State USA Joined: |
I think that I am bias when it comes to matters concerning Russia.
I am a cold war kid and propagandized against the red menace. That being said I still do not trust Russia. The BS they pulled inGeorgia and now Ukraine is proof that Russia still has a cold war mentality when it comes to it's surrounding territory. After reading everyones comments I get the impression that we all agree that this is most unfortunate and will be bad in what ever form it takes. This is what I see happening. Nothing.Russia will keep troops there and the rest of the world will bitch and moan. Ukraine will be forced to either defend itself or face occupation. Which technically has already occured. The U.S. will condemn it and cut Russia out of the G8 but other than sanctions we will be the last ones to want a military confrontation with our old cold war enemies."You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9076 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.7 |
What else can we do?
War is not an option. Is it?Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
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1.61803 Member (Idle past 1504 days) Posts: 2928 From: Lone Star State USA Joined: |
Theodoric writes: What else can we do?War is not an option. Is it? This is a mexican stand off to see who will blink first. Russia is counting on the world not willing to risk war. We are counting on Russia to not risk their economy and world standing. It is not in the U.S.A. best interest to engage in yet another war.After being at war for the last 13-14 years we simply would bankrupt the country even further. Putin and President Obama will have to find a way for both sides to save face. Diplomacy is the only real option. imo. But that is not to say Ukraine will stand by and be occupied like this. If they suffer more causalties at the hands of the Russian Federation I honestly do not know what the US and Nato would do. Also, there is the possibilty that Ukraine is just the beginningof a new era of Russian land grabs. Edited by 1.61803, : No reason given."You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs
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dronestar Member Posts: 1407 From: usa Joined:
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1.61803 writes: That being said I still do not trust Russia. The BS they pulled inGeorgia and now Ukraine is proof that Russia still has a cold war mentality when it comes to it's surrounding territory. I don't trust Russia either, however . . . Why do you see the splinter in your brother's eye but not notice the log in your own eye? The US/NATO has hundreds of military bases throughout the world. The bases encircle their enemies. (Thanks to Snowden we even know that the NSA encircles its own citizens.) Russia would prefer NATO and western influence not encroach/encircle them too. Hegemony (and the cold war mentality) has many costs, both in lives and money. The usa has a military budget nearly EQUAL to the rest of the world combined. Is the cost worth it?
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1.61803 Member (Idle past 1504 days) Posts: 2928 From: Lone Star State USA Joined: |
Hi dronester,
Why do you see the splinter in your brother's eye but not notice the log in your own eye? I don't. I am aware of many of the evils that the U.S. perpetuated in the past and today. But I believe the difference is the Ukraine is a free independent nation that wants to join the EU.Mother Russian says "nyet!" What right does Russia have to occupy with military show of force in Ukraine's territory? The U.S. has in the past attempted to replace other countries elections with pro U.S. sympathetic leaders.We staged coups, we attempted assinations. But the U.S. has never completley took them over and violated their independance. If that were the case then CUBA should be a territory of the U.S. and it clearly is not. Also the world is a different place than the world of 17th century,or 18th century or even the 20th century. Military territorial expansion is frowned upon. So when it comes to scrutiny, the Russian Federation is looking like a bully right now. Edited by 1.61803, : spelling."You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs
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dronestar Member Posts: 1407 From: usa Joined:
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1.61803 writes: What right does Russia have to occupy with military show of force in Ukraine's territory? 1. The usa didn't allow Cuba to have any Russian military bases in america's backyard, so why should Russia allow the Ukraine to have any NATO bases in Russia's backyard? 2. What right did america have to occupy with military show of force in Iraq's territory?
1.61803 writes: But the U.S. has never completley took them over and violated [another country's] independance. Are you kidding me?
1.61803 writes: So when it comes to scrutiny, the Russian Federation is looking like a bully right now. quote: Russia occupying Ukraine IS a breach of international law and IS in direct, overt violation of international law. But for any american, especially Obama or Kerry to say it is, is the height of hypocrisy.
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Taz Member (Idle past 3292 days) Posts: 5069 From: Zerus Joined: |
I don't care if Russia invades Ukraine with the intention of cannibalize Ukrainian babies, please holy virgin mary don't let the US send in troops. Let someone else take up the responsibility this time.
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8513 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 5.3
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