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Author Topic:   If our sun is second or third generation, does this not conflict with Genesis ?
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2260 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 170 of 231 (720465)
02-24-2014 7:30 AM
Reply to: Message 165 by Percy
02-23-2014 9:37 AM


Re: Mythology...
I said that I described actual views within science and that you're just making things up.
Bs'd
What is it that I make up according to you?
You are again having problems with simple English. The problem is that you're ignoring the rebuttals.
And so do you guys.
Time on earth was not always the same, the expanding universe slows down time, and in other places in the universe time flows with totally different speeds.
And this is what makes it evident that you don't understand relativity. Time flows at the same rate in all inertial reference frames. We may observe time flowing more slowly in other inertial reference frames that are in motion or are accelerating with respect to our own, but within those other reference frames time flows at the same rate as within our own.
Oh oh, and then you guys think that you are the sophisticated well educated and scientific ones, debating the religious hillbillies who think the earth is flat.
Time is affected by things like speed, gravitation, and space. (ever heard the term "space-time"?)
When two atomic clocks are set up, one a meter higher than the other one, then you can see that the top one runs faster than the bottom one, because a meter higher the gravitational field of the earth is less than a meter closer to earth, and therefore a meter higher time is less slowed down then a meter lower. These are absolute real differences in time.
An earthly clock, when brought to the sun, will slow down, and then every earth year he will tick away one year minus 67 seconds, because time there is slowed down by the bigger gravity of the sun.
Those are very real absolute time differences.
You *really* don't understand relativity. Even if you were 50 billion light years from here, your observations would still measure the Big Bang at 13.7 billion years ago.
There are litterally BILLIONS of places in the universe where time is so much slowed down, that a clock, if we would place one there, would tick away only six days in fifteen billion earth years. So if a clock were placed there after the big bang, it would say that only six days have passed by there since then.
Hubble's discovery of an expanding universe is more in line with the Bible only in that it says this universe had a beginning. That's about it.
And that is already an enormous stap toward the Bible.
You're welcome to believe that. As I explained before, science does not believe the heavens and earth were both created in the beginning,
Let's say that the term "in the beginning" is not one exact point in time.
and there is no certainty within science that the beginning of this universe was the beginning of existence. There is even speculation that there may be many universes - certainly the laws of physics permit it, and it falls naturally out of some forms of string theory.
Keep in mind the difference between science and speculation.
The only real science is emperically testible science. The rest is stamp collecting.
We have to learn again that science without contact with experiments is an enterprise which is likely to go completely astray into imaginary conjecture.
― Hannes Alfven, Nobel price winner in physics
A good example of the above is the evolution theory.
Edited by Eliyahu, : No reason given.
Edited by Eliyahu, : No reason given.


"Those who believe that the geological record is in any degree perfect, will undoubtedly at once reject my theory."

Darwin

This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by Percy, posted 02-23-2014 9:37 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by Percy, posted 02-24-2014 8:05 AM Eliyahu has replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2260 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 171 of 231 (720466)
02-24-2014 7:32 AM
Reply to: Message 169 by Percy
02-24-2014 7:11 AM


Re: Mythology...
Elihayu also hasn't seemed to have considered that if he were correct that the Big Bang and the formation of the earth were simultaneous, then everything that ever happened, including the cup of coffee he just finished, were also simultaneous with those events. Which obviously makes no sense. Well, obvious to us.
Bs'd
??????????????????
Where do I say that the big bang and the creation of the earth were simultaneous events??


"Those who believe that the geological record is in any degree perfect, will undoubtedly at once reject my theory."

Darwin

This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by Percy, posted 02-24-2014 7:11 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by Percy, posted 02-24-2014 9:03 AM Eliyahu has not replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2260 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 172 of 231 (720467)
02-24-2014 7:33 AM
Reply to: Message 167 by NoNukes
02-24-2014 12:18 AM


Re: Mythology...
You say stuff that is clearly wrong.
Bs'd
Like what for instance?


"Those who believe that the geological record is in any degree perfect, will undoubtedly at once reject my theory."

Darwin

This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by NoNukes, posted 02-24-2014 12:18 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2260 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 173 of 231 (720469)
02-24-2014 7:44 AM
Reply to: Message 166 by NoNukes
02-23-2014 12:21 PM


Re: Time is relative
Since you did not write message 151, I am going to presume you meant message 155 written in response to message 151.
Bs'd
That's the one.
You consider that to be an explanation. But I find it to be full of made up science.
Please tell me what part of the science is not correct.
It explains only what you believe and not anything real.
"So then the earth was not yet formed, had not yet been created."
Of course according to Genesis the earth had life on it, and there was day and night on the earth before the sun, moon, or stars even existed. Clearly the non-formed state of the earth was over by the end of day three. None of your mumbo jumbo about different times on the sun fixes that.
I'm not saying the earth didn't exist on day three, I'm saying that until the end of day six Genesis counts with cosmic standard time.
The ancient Jewish commentators said that those days were days of 24 hours, the six days as the days of our working week.
But, so they said, those six days contain all the secrets and ages of the universe.
The question arises: When those days only lasted 24 hours, then how could they contain all the secrets and ages of the universe?[q/s]
Your question and your idea about 'secrets of the universe' being not containable in any number of days is not even Biblical. Forget the criticisms about your physics. You say essentially 'let's question God's power' and then finding it lacking let's make up some stuff.
I bring ancient Jewish commentators.
Judaism has a lot more sources of information than only the Bible.
It seems much more likely that Genesis was written by someone who simply wasn't present during the big bang or the creation of flora and fauna and who knew jack about what happened.
Well, the chances of a human being present at the big bang are a kind of small, what?
But here is what a Jewish commentator wrote about the creation of the world:
"The first act of creation made something that was so thin that it had no substance. It was the only act of creation that ever happened, and compressed in that point in space was the whole universe just after its creation."
Sounds like the big bang to me.
Edited by Eliyahu, : No reason given.


"Those who believe that the geological record is in any degree perfect, will undoubtedly at once reject my theory."

Darwin

This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by NoNukes, posted 02-23-2014 12:21 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 177 by Percy, posted 02-24-2014 8:30 AM Eliyahu has replied
 Message 180 by NoNukes, posted 02-24-2014 11:47 AM Eliyahu has not replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2260 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 182 of 231 (720530)
02-24-2014 11:21 PM
Reply to: Message 175 by Percy
02-24-2014 8:05 AM


Re: Mythology...
Eliyahu in Message 158 writes:
Sure. And science also says that the universe doesn't exist.
...
The whole material world is a very persistant illusion.
Only the spiritual world exists.
...
What you experience as "reality", the physical world, that just doesn't exist.
It is all mental.
This is all just you making stuff up, or maybe they're your religious beliefs. It isn't anything science believes to be true.
Bs'd
Really? You force me to repeat myself. Here he comes again:
Oh oh, and then you guys think that you are the sophisticated well educated and scientific ones, debating the religious hillbillies who think the earth is flat.
And you don't even know the the universe doesn't exist?? I mean; it is not like that is a recent discovery or something, science discovered it almost a hundred years ago, and you don't know about it?
And then you want to lecture me on science?
I suggest you do some reading on the subject, and then come back.


"Those who believe that the geological record is in any degree perfect, will undoubtedly at once reject my theory."

Darwin

This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by Percy, posted 02-24-2014 8:05 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 183 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-24-2014 11:55 PM Eliyahu has replied
 Message 194 by Percy, posted 02-25-2014 9:10 AM Eliyahu has not replied
 Message 201 by NoNukes, posted 02-25-2014 11:02 AM Eliyahu has not replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2260 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 184 of 231 (720532)
02-25-2014 12:05 AM
Reply to: Message 177 by Percy
02-24-2014 8:30 AM


Re: Time is relative
Is your memory that short? Are you that confused?
Bs'd
Well, to tell you the truth, I'm not sure. It could be one, or the other. Or both of 'm. Or none of 'm.
Or both of 'm and something more. Or one of 'm and something more. Or the other one of 'm, and something more. Or none of 'm and something more. Or ... Well, the possibliities are endless. All I can say about it is: "Who am I to judge?"
I'm not saying the earth didn't exist on day three, I'm saying that until the end of day six Genesis counts with cosmic standard time.
Cosmic standard time? You mean like the scientific version of cosmic standard time? The one where the Big Bang happened at time 0 and the Earth formed at time 9.14 billion years?
That would be earth time.
I think I see one way that you're reasoning is leading you astray. This is from your Message 155:
Eliyahu in Message 155 writes:
In a black hole it will look as if the cosmic clock ticks with an enormously high frequency,...
Light falling into the gravity well of a black hole will experience the same slowing as everything else. An observer will not see "an enormously high frequency."
The enormous gravity will slow down time, not everything else.
But here is what a Jewish commentator wrote about the creation of the world:
"The first act of creation made something that was so thin that it had no substance. It was the only act of creation that ever happened, and compressed in that point in space was the whole universe just after its creation."
Sounds like the big bang to me.
I can find this quote nowhere on the net - who said it?
Rabbi Moshe ben Nachman in his commentary on the creation story in Genesis.


"The only reality is mind and observations."

Richard Conn Henry, Cambridge professor department of physics

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by Percy, posted 02-24-2014 8:30 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 186 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-25-2014 12:11 AM Eliyahu has not replied
 Message 197 by Percy, posted 02-25-2014 9:55 AM Eliyahu has not replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2260 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 185 of 231 (720533)
02-25-2014 12:08 AM
Reply to: Message 183 by New Cat's Eye
02-24-2014 11:55 PM


Re: Mythology...
Dude... I'm totally here responding to your post.
And I'm in the Universe.
It exists, ya dingus.
Bs'd
That's what Neo thought about the matrix....
We are living in a matrix, like Neo.
The difference is however, that Neo' s reality did exist, somewhere else. Our reality doesn't exist at all.
Our matrix is a lot deeper.
I'll explain this a bit. A while ago I was having the shabbat dinner in the house of a dutch friend here in the Judean desert. He is married to a russian woman who happens to have a university degree in physics, she is an engineer in physics. After talking to my friend a bit in dutch, I explained to her in Hebrew that I just told my friend that the very solid table from which we were eating, that if we would leave the room, close the door, and then nobody would observe the table, that that table then would go out of existence.
About this her only comment was: "That is correct."
So reality is a bit diffferent from what you always imagined.
Matter has no intrinsic existance.
Welcome to the Matrix!
.
.
.
Edited by Eliyahu, : No reason given.
Edited by Eliyahu, : No reason given.
Edited by Eliyahu, : No reason given.


"The only reality is mind and observations."

Richard Conn Henry, Cambridge professor department of physics

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-24-2014 11:55 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 187 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-25-2014 12:12 AM Eliyahu has replied
 Message 189 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-25-2014 12:34 AM Eliyahu has replied
 Message 196 by Son Goku, posted 02-25-2014 9:26 AM Eliyahu has not replied
 Message 199 by Percy, posted 02-25-2014 10:06 AM Eliyahu has not replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2260 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 188 of 231 (720536)
02-25-2014 12:28 AM
Reply to: Message 187 by New Cat's Eye
02-25-2014 12:12 AM


Re: Mythology...
So your beliefs are equivalent to fiction.
Thank Jesus that the Jews were shown to be so stupid.
Bs'd
I think it is not so much a matter of stupid, but more ignorance from your side.
Like I said, science discovered this almost a 100 years ago. How come you don't have a clue?
Could it be that we are being lied to by the scientists, like we were lied to for more than a 100 years about the fossil record? Science telling us that the fossil record supported Darwin, while all the time they new it did not?
Could this be the skeleton in the closet of the physicists, like professor Richard Conn Henry from the Cambridge department of physics says?


"The only reality is mind and observations."

Richard Conn Henry, Cambridge professor department of physics

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-25-2014 12:12 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 190 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-25-2014 12:38 AM Eliyahu has replied
 Message 200 by Percy, posted 02-25-2014 10:09 AM Eliyahu has not replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2260 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 191 of 231 (720539)
02-25-2014 1:37 AM
Reply to: Message 189 by New Cat's Eye
02-25-2014 12:34 AM


Re: Mythology...
Tables do not cease to exists when people leave the room.
Bs'd
It is not just tables, that goes for all matter.
why should I take your word on this?
You shouldn't. You would be an idiot to take my word for it.
That's why, when I have some more time, I'll give you the scientific support.


"The only reality is mind and observations."

Richard Conn Henry, Cambridge professor department of physics

This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-25-2014 12:34 AM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2260 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 193 of 231 (720541)
02-25-2014 1:59 AM
Reply to: Message 190 by New Cat's Eye
02-25-2014 12:38 AM


Re: Mythology...
No, you cannot even remember what you posted here on this forum recently. So I cannot start to think that you can even begin to remember scientific discoveries.
Bs'd
It's hard to remember things you never said, like for instance that the big bang and the creation of the earth were at the same time. Something that some people here say I said.
But anyway, seeing that about everybody here knows next to nothing about this scientific discovery which is almost a hundred years old, it is becoming clear now who are the ignorant hillbillies, and who is not.
But no matter how interesting this subject is, it has nothing to do with what generation our sun is, and how that relates to Genesis, so bs'd I'll propose a new topic about this fascinating subject, than we can there delve deeper into it.


"The only reality is mind and observations."

Richard Conn Henry, Cambridge professor department of physics

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-25-2014 12:38 AM New Cat's Eye has seen this message but not replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2260 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 204 of 231 (721145)
03-04-2014 7:28 AM
Reply to: Message 150 by Tempe 12ft Chicken
02-21-2014 1:58 PM


Re: I study Genesis and the rest of the Torah non-stop.
you want to imply because other people had myths about floods that yours must be true
Bs'd
What I say is, that the fact that every old culture has a flood myth, that that is the proof A worldwide flood really happened.
In fact, if it was global and all humans are descended from the Noahic family line then we should see these identical flood myths in not just a lot of cultures, but in all cultures because they all stem from the same initial breeding population.
And that's exactly what we see.
However, the biggest death nail is that one culture (which we know a great deal about) does not have nearly a similar flood myth.......The Egyptians. Their flood myth does not even end with the deaths of all of the Egyptian people, but rather the God responsible for causing it, Hathor, floods the world with the blood of those she kills. Ra decides the punishment, while not total, has been enough and orders slaves (Living humans after the flood happens) to make a lake of beer for Hathor to drink while she is drinking the blood. She drinks it, gets drunk and gets bored of slaughtering everyone...
And then, the few survivors, start the human race again.
Because these myths have been transmitted orally you cannot expect them to be all exactly the same after more than 4000 years,
But still, every ancient culture has its flood myth. Also the Egyptians.


"The only reality is mind and observations."

Richard Conn Henry, professor Johns Hopkin department of physics

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 02-21-2014 1:58 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 205 by NoNukes, posted 03-04-2014 9:52 AM Eliyahu has not replied
 Message 206 by Taq, posted 03-04-2014 10:57 AM Eliyahu has not replied

  
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