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Author Topic:   If our sun is second or third generation, does this not conflict with Genesis ?
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2259 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 135 of 231 (720235)
02-21-2014 7:30 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by Coyote
05-20-2011 10:21 PM


Re: Mythology...
Bs'd
From the days of Aristoteles, about 2300 years ago, up to and including Einstein, science believed that the universe was eternal, without beginning or end.
With the big-bang theory, science made an about-face, and brought itself in line with what the Bible claims for already 3300 years: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."
Science now agrees, after thousands of years, that there was a beginning.
Were making progress, only it takes a bit long.


"Those who believe that the geological record is in any degree perfect, will undoubtedly at once reject my theory."

Darwin

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Coyote, posted 05-20-2011 10:21 PM Coyote has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by Percy, posted 02-21-2014 8:29 AM Eliyahu has replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2259 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 136 of 231 (720236)
02-21-2014 7:35 AM
Reply to: Message 120 by jar
05-24-2011 11:00 AM


Re: you're going to have to "Stuudy Genesis" even more than that.
There was no Biblical Flood. Never happened.
Bs'd
You have any proofs for that assumption, or are you just rambling about without any proof?
There was no Tower of Babel as described in the story. Never happened.
You have any proofs for that assumption, or are you just rambling about without any proof?


"Those who believe that the geological record is in any degree perfect, will undoubtedly at once reject my theory."

Darwin

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by jar, posted 05-24-2011 11:00 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by jar, posted 02-21-2014 8:01 AM Eliyahu has replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2259 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 139 of 231 (720243)
02-21-2014 8:45 AM
Reply to: Message 138 by Percy
02-21-2014 8:29 AM


Re: Mythology...
Theory changed because of evidence discovered by Hubble of an expanding rather than static universe. It didn't change to become more in line with the Bible
Bs'd
Thank you for kicking in that open door. Of course it didn't change in order to get more in line with the Bible, but it DID get enormously more in line with the Bible.
From an eternal universe to one with a beginning, like the Bible says, that is an enormous change.
, and in fact the change agreed hardly at all with the Bible. Science thinks the universe is 13.7 billion years old, the Bible around 6000. Science thinks the earth is 4.56 billions years old, the Bible around 6000. Science thinks that time might be an illusion and that the very question, "When did things begin?" makes no sense.
Time is relative. More than half a century after Einstein that should be common knowledge. So there is no problem to squeeze 15 billion years into six days.
Edited by Eliyahu, : No reason given.


"Those who believe that the geological record is in any degree perfect, will undoubtedly at once reject my theory."

Darwin

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by Percy, posted 02-21-2014 8:29 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by Percy, posted 02-21-2014 9:50 AM Eliyahu has not replied
 Message 151 by shalamabobbi, posted 02-21-2014 2:08 PM Eliyahu has replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2259 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 140 of 231 (720245)
02-21-2014 8:51 AM
Reply to: Message 137 by jar
02-21-2014 8:01 AM


Re: you're going to have to "Stuudy Genesis" even more than that.
And there is no genetic bottleneck signature common to all animals pointing to the same event; thus the Biblical flood has been totally and completely refuted.
It really is that simple.
Bs'd
A bit TOO simple.
There are several solutions to that problem. For instance, the marker for that bottleneck is there, it just has not been found yet.
Maybe it is found, but science is covering it up.
Maybe we just don't need that marker, something science is only going to discover in the future,
And I can think of more things like this.
The fact that every old culture has a flood story, with many common themes like those mentioned in the Bible, that proves that there was a global flood.


"Those who believe that the geological record is in any degree perfect, will undoubtedly at once reject my theory."

Darwin

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by jar, posted 02-21-2014 8:01 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by jar, posted 02-21-2014 9:07 AM Eliyahu has replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2259 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 141 of 231 (720246)
02-21-2014 8:58 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Adminnemooseus
05-11-2011 7:54 PM


Re: Reference please, etc.
God created light 3 days before creating the sun.
Bs'd
That is another point where science solved the puzzle for us.
For thousands of years the joke was: "How could there be light when the sun was created later??"
Now science has solved the burning question what was there first, the chicken or the egg?
The sun of the light?
Science tells us: First there was light, and only later the sun.
Yet another problem solved.
.
.
.
HalleluJah!!
.
.
.
Edited by Eliyahu, : No reason given.


"Those who believe that the geological record is in any degree perfect, will undoubtedly at once reject my theory."

Darwin

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Adminnemooseus, posted 05-11-2011 7:54 PM Adminnemooseus has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by Eliyahu, posted 02-21-2014 8:59 AM Eliyahu has not replied
 Message 152 by NoNukes, posted 02-21-2014 11:50 PM Eliyahu has replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2259 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 142 of 231 (720247)
02-21-2014 8:59 AM
Reply to: Message 141 by Eliyahu
02-21-2014 8:58 AM


Re: Reference please, etc.
Bs'd
You see, as science progresses, it lines up more and more with the Bible.


"Those who believe that the geological record is in any degree perfect, will undoubtedly at once reject my theory."

Darwin

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by Eliyahu, posted 02-21-2014 8:58 AM Eliyahu has not replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2259 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 144 of 231 (720254)
02-21-2014 9:15 AM
Reply to: Message 143 by jar
02-21-2014 9:07 AM


Re: you're going to have to "Stuudy Genesis" even more than that.
The fact that every old culture has a flood story, with many common themes like those mentioned in the Bible, that proves that there was a global flood.
That has to be one of the stupidest, idiotic assertions ever made. Of course lots of flood myths do not mean there was a global flood. It might mean that floods happen most everywhere though and guess what?
Floods happen most everywhere.
Bs'd
Floods happen almost everywhere. YES!
Except in the desert maybe, but OK, floods happen almost everywhere.
And so do wars, pestilences, forest fires, earthquakes, etc etc.
However, there are no end of the world stories occurring globally with the same elements futuring earthquakes, forest fires, plagues, or whatever. Just doesn't exist.
What does exist however, is more than 300 flood stories, spread out over the whole world, with the same elements; one family escaping on a boat, birds being send out to check if the world is dry, a rainbow as a divine sign.
So therefore, we have a strong proof that the flood did happen.


"Those who believe that the geological record is in any degree perfect, will undoubtedly at once reject my theory."

Darwin

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by jar, posted 02-21-2014 9:07 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by jar, posted 02-21-2014 9:29 AM Eliyahu has replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2259 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 146 of 231 (720260)
02-21-2014 9:35 AM
Reply to: Message 145 by jar
02-21-2014 9:29 AM


I study Genesis and the rest of the Torah non-stop.
Sorry but that is simply not true.
Bs'd
From where do you get that ugly & mistaken idea that it is not true??
And even if it was true it is not evidence of a global flood.
But again, that is irrelevant, unimportant.
The fact is that all the evidence for a Biblical flood is completely refuted if that bottleneck signature is not there. It does not matter how much evidence there is for something if even one fact refutes it.
The fact is, that there are no facts in science.
Viewpoints now declared holy by science, may be in on the garbage heap tomorrow when new evidence has come to light that refutes that what was yesterday an indisputable scientific fact.


"Those who believe that the geological record is in any degree perfect, will undoubtedly at once reject my theory."

Darwin

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by jar, posted 02-21-2014 9:29 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by jar, posted 02-21-2014 9:47 AM Eliyahu has not replied
 Message 149 by Coyote, posted 02-21-2014 10:25 AM Eliyahu has not replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2259 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 153 of 231 (720388)
02-22-2014 2:19 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by Percy
02-21-2014 8:29 AM


Re: Mythology...
Science thinks that time might be an illusion and that the very question, "When did things begin?" makes no sense.
Bs'd
If we start talking like that, I know another one: The whole universe is an illusion.
Welcome to the matrix!


"Those who believe that the geological record is in any degree perfect, will undoubtedly at once reject my theory."

Darwin

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by Percy, posted 02-21-2014 8:29 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by Percy, posted 02-22-2014 3:44 PM Eliyahu has replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2259 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 154 of 231 (720391)
02-22-2014 2:22 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by NoNukes
02-21-2014 11:50 PM


Re: Posers just pose I suppose...
The question or joke is not whether any light existed before the sun or whether the sun is the source of all light throughout creation. It would be easy to postulate a source of light other than the sun.
Bs'd
There you go, problem solved.
Instead, the question was and is what was the source of Day and Night on earth before the Sun and Moon were created on day four.
Was that the question? I hear that for the first time in my life.
Well, some source of light, and a rotating earth is enough.


"Those who believe that the geological record is in any degree perfect, will undoubtedly at once reject my theory."

Darwin

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by NoNukes, posted 02-21-2014 11:50 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by NoNukes, posted 02-22-2014 3:22 PM Eliyahu has replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2259 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 155 of 231 (720392)
02-22-2014 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by shalamabobbi
02-21-2014 2:08 PM


Re: Time is relative
So which is it? God flies about at very nearly the speed of light, he resides in a very great gravity well, or he is constantly accelerating at a very great rate - while creating?
Bs'd
Since that days of Aristoteles, about 2300 years ago, the scientific viewpoint was that the universe was eternal, without beginning or end.
Einstein claimed to have proven that the universe was eternal.
All that time the Torah was very unscientific, by claiming that there had been a beginning.
For thousands of years Genesis went right against the scientific viewpoint, and didn't budge an inch.
Thank God.
Because somewhere in the second half of the twentieth century, the evidence for the big bang became so abundant, that it couldn't be ignored anymore, and the fact that the universe had a beginning was accepted by science.
Science made an about-face, and changed its viewpoint concerning the universe, and aligned itself with Genesis.
There was a beginning.
The rabbi's wondered: "In the beginning of what?"
Their conclusion was: In the beginning of time.
It is written in the Torah: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
The earth was unformed and void."
The words for "unformed" and "void" are "tohu" and "vohu". "Unformed" or "chaotic" is a fair translation of "tohu", but "vohu" is translated by both the Talmud, finished in around the year 500, and the Torah scholar Nachmanides, as "filled with the building blocks of matter".
So then the earth was not yet formed, had not yet been created.
The Jewish calendar, for already thousands of years, starts to count from the creation of Adam and Eve, at the end of the sixth day. And not at the first day of creation.
The first six days are excluded from the Jewish calendar, who works with earth time. The ancient Jewish commentators said that those days were days of 24 hours, the six days as the days of our working week.
But, so they said, those six days contain all the secrets and ages of the universe.
The question arises: When those days only lasted 24 hours, then how could they contain all the secrets and ages of the universe?
And if those first six days lasted only 24 hours, why then are they not counted in the calendar?
This is where Albert Einstein comes to the rescue. He was the first one to realize that time is relative.
Science, and the Jewish calendar from the end of the sixth day, count with earth time. But in the beginning of creation there was no earth, so also no earth time: "The earth was unformed and void."
So then what? Every spot in the universe has its own time. On the surface of the sun less time has passed by since creation than on earth, because the bigger mass of the sun slows down time.
On the moon more time has elapsed, because of the lesser gravity.
And if we are talking about black holes, with and ENORMOUS gravitational force, then less than six days have passed there since creation.
So there are plenty of places to be found in the universe where less then six days have passed by since creation.
But what time is it that Genesis uses?
Well, there is such a thing as an absolute time standard for the universe. A clock which ticks everywhere even as fast.
An earthly clock, when brought to the sun, will slow down, and then every earth year he will tick away one year minus 67 seconds, because time there is slowed down by the bigger gravity of the sun.
Greater masses will slow down time even more, so that won't work.
But, there is the cosmic background radiation, the echo of the big bang, which fills the entire universe. That radiation arrives at every point in the universe with the same frequency. If we take every wave of that radiation as a tick of the cosmic clock, we have a clock that ticks everywhere in the universe with the same speed.
Of course it will LOOK like there are big differences. In a black hole it will look as if the cosmic clock ticks with an enormously high frequency, and in empty space it will appear to be ticking much slower, but in absolute sense that clocks ticks everywhere even as fast.
That is cosmic standard time. The time standard with which Genesis measures time from creation until Adam.
As we know, time is relative, and is affected by for instance mass, speed, and space.
The universe began as a singularity, an enormously small point, in which the whole universe was contained.
As we all know, the universe is VERY big, and if you squeeze that into a very small point, than that is gonna be very crowded.
Because of that overpopulation, the pressure and temperature was enormously high.
The temperature there was so high that no matter could form, only pure energy existed in the form of electromagnetic radiation; light.
And then it started to expand.
Because of the expansion, temperature and pressure went down, and after a while we reached the point of quark confinement, that is the point where energy, in the form of light, was being transferred to matter. The opposite as what happens in a nuclear explosion.
As we all know, energy and matter is the same, like water and ice are the same; matter is congealed energy.
The temperature of quark confinement we know, it can be measured in advanced laboratories, and it is 1,000,000,000 degrees Kelvin. That temperature was reached about 0.00001 seconds after the big bang, and then matter started to form.
With the formation of matter time started. Without matter no time. Time needs something to "work" on. Energy is not subjected to time, and is in an everlasting "now".
And the universe kept on expanding, and pressure and temperature kept on falling. And when space got bigger, the wave length of the electromagnetic radiation, the cosmic rays, were stretched out. The wave length became longer, the frequency went down, the cosmic clock started to tick slower.
With the expansion of space, time slowed down. The bigger the space, the slower the time. Time is inversely proportional to space.
Space is also inversely proportional to temperature. When space got bigger, the amount of available energy had to be smeared out over a bigger area, and the temperature dropped.
When space is inversely proportional to time, and space is also inversely proportional to temperature, that means that time is proportional to temperature.
We know at what temperature time began; at 1,000,000,000 degrees Kelvin.
We know what is the temperature of the background radiation now, about 2.73 Kelvin, about minus 270 degrees Centigrade.
So the temperature went down with roughly a factor of one trillion. That means that time has been slowed down with the same factor.
Science estimates the age of the universe at about 15 billion years.
The Bible counts with six days of cosmic standard time, and almost 6000 years earth time.
But the cosmic standard time is diluted by a factor trillion, so if you want to look at those six days of cosmic standard time from an earthly perspective, then you have to multiply it with a factor one billion, and then the six days become 16.4 billion years.
So if anybody asks: "How much time has passed since creation, six days or 15 billion years?", then the right answer is: "Yes".
And I think we can work something out concerning the Kool-Aid


"Those who believe that the geological record is in any degree perfect, will undoubtedly at once reject my theory."

Darwin

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by shalamabobbi, posted 02-21-2014 2:08 PM shalamabobbi has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by NoNukes, posted 02-22-2014 3:34 PM Eliyahu has replied
 Message 192 by shalamabobbi, posted 02-25-2014 1:44 AM Eliyahu has not replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2259 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 159 of 231 (720409)
02-23-2014 1:49 AM
Reply to: Message 158 by Percy
02-22-2014 3:44 PM


Re: Mythology...
If we start talking like that, I know another one: The whole universe is an illusion.
But science is talking like that.
Bs'd
Sure. And science also says that the universe doesn't exist.
You claimed that science is becoming more in line with the Bible, but science can't really say whether the universe is eternal.
Of course not, there was a beginning.
We know there was a beginning for the current expansion of the universe, but whether that was the ultimate beginning is unknown. And as I said before, time is not part of the math describing our universe, and science believes it possible that time is just an illusion, though, as Eiinstein said, a very persistent one.
The whole material world is a very persistant illusion.
Only the spriritual world exists.
And even Hubble's original discovery of the expanding universe didn't align with the Bible's "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth...", because while it could be argued that universe *was* created at the beginning, it wasn't until millions of years later that there were any stars (the heavens), and not until billions of years later that the earth was formed.
Time is relative.
God didn't use earth time when there was no earth.
If within your own mind you'd like to believe that science is coming more and more into line with the Bible then that's your business, but here in the real world science is becoming better and better aligned with the evidence from reality.
What you experience as "reality", the physical world, that just doesn't exist.
It is all mental.


"Those who believe that the geological record is in any degree perfect, will undoubtedly at once reject my theory."

Darwin

This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by Percy, posted 02-22-2014 3:44 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by Percy, posted 02-23-2014 3:10 AM Eliyahu has replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2259 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 160 of 231 (720410)
02-23-2014 1:51 AM
Reply to: Message 156 by NoNukes
02-22-2014 3:22 PM


Re: Posers just pose I suppose...
Well, some source of light, and a rotating earth is enough.
Duh! So what was the source? You did claim to have the answer to the question of the ages.
Bs'd
What was it that was created by the big bang? Matter? Or light?


"Those who believe that the geological record is in any degree perfect, will undoubtedly at once reject my theory."

Darwin

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by NoNukes, posted 02-22-2014 3:22 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by NoNukes, posted 02-23-2014 2:41 AM Eliyahu has not replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2259 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 163 of 231 (720418)
02-23-2014 6:44 AM
Reply to: Message 162 by Percy
02-23-2014 3:10 AM


Re: Mythology...
I'm describing actual views within science while you're just making things up as you go along. You seem self-satisfied with your "explanations", but to anyone familiar with science they're transparently superficial and wrong.
Bs'd
Ah, when you say something it is science, and when I say something it is not science.
And you think that is a serious argument in a discussion??
And you continue to ignore rebuttals. For example, it was explained in detail why "time is relative" is not an answer, and yet here you are many posts later just declaring "time is relative" as if that explained anything.
You take yourself way to seriously, and especially your attempts to rebut something.
It is of course totally ridiculous to think that if somebody has a certain viewpoint, that after you tried to rebut that viewpoint, the other is no longer allowed to hold that viewpoint.
The facts are that the Big Bang was 13.7 billion years ago,
That is, as in time counted on earth right now.
Time on earth was not always the same, the expanding universe slows down time, and in other places in the universe time flows with totally different speeds.
So you cannot bluntly say: "the big bang was 13.7 years ago".
And there is of course still the fact that there are no facts in science. NOW science says the big bang was 13.7 billion present earth years ago.
Tomorrow they might discover something new that completely uproots that assumption.
So don't try to sell present presumptions as unshakable facts.
Hubble's discovery of an expanding universe is more in line with the Bible only in that it says this universe had a beginning. That's about it.
And that is already an enormous stap toward the Bible.


"Those who believe that the geological record is in any degree perfect, will undoubtedly at once reject my theory."

Darwin

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by Percy, posted 02-23-2014 3:10 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 165 by Percy, posted 02-23-2014 9:37 AM Eliyahu has replied
 Message 167 by NoNukes, posted 02-24-2014 12:18 AM Eliyahu has replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2259 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 164 of 231 (720419)
02-23-2014 6:47 AM
Reply to: Message 157 by NoNukes
02-22-2014 3:34 PM


Re: Time is relative
But let's pretend that such a placed did exist way off in some distant galaxy-sized black hole 13.7 billion light years from earth. Is it your position that such a place is what the writer of Genesis was contemplating? Surely not.
Bs'd
I explained in message 151 what time is used for the first six days of the creation story.


"Those who believe that the geological record is in any degree perfect, will undoubtedly at once reject my theory."

Darwin

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by NoNukes, posted 02-22-2014 3:34 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 166 by NoNukes, posted 02-23-2014 12:21 PM Eliyahu has replied

  
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