Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
8 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,815 Year: 3,072/9,624 Month: 917/1,588 Week: 100/223 Day: 11/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Why "YEC"/Fundamentalist Creationism is BAD for America
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 161 of 238 (718803)
02-08-2014 10:23 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by Jaf
02-08-2014 5:48 PM


Re: reality vs fantasy?
I'd like to see the arguments and who they are being presented too, I find it unusual that creationists are seeking a political solution to this issue don't you? As long as our freedom is not curtailed to believe and educate our young, which is clearly what you are trying to have politically removed from us, is that correct, hopefully you will answer me honestly.
The US constitution provides specifically for separation of church and state and explicitly states that no one religion or religious view shall be "established" or endorsed by any public function. This includes public schools but does restrict private schools.
This preserves all our freedoms. People who want to teach their children delusional ideas are free to do so via home schooling or a private school if that suits their beliefs.
Belief cannot be enforced by legislation.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by Jaf, posted 02-08-2014 5:48 PM Jaf has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by Jaf, posted 02-09-2014 1:03 AM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 162 of 238 (718805)
02-08-2014 10:29 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by Jaf
02-08-2014 6:46 PM


Re: You're not doing so well...
So the forum is evolution verses creation, and you need me to explain what is meant by creation and what I believe it to be in order to get a thread up here, wow.
The idea is simple: if you are going to argue a position -- no matter what it is -- in a thread, that your position needs to be stated. That defines what you are going to defend in the thread.
So far you have been given a lot of latitude to just make random statements of highly questionable value. When you start a thread you need to rise up to a higher intellectual standard of quality and defend it with substance.
Good luck

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by Jaf, posted 02-08-2014 6:46 PM Jaf has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 165 by Jaf, posted 02-08-2014 10:49 PM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(3)
Message 167 of 238 (718811)
02-08-2014 11:02 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by Jaf
02-08-2014 10:44 PM


Re: reality vs fantasy?
Kind of like only a chosen few can decide what's good for us and what's truth and what isn't, like the dark ages?
Not really, the criteria is not what people think, it is what is supported by the evidence and that the scientific process can be replicated and reviewed and tested and that the result is validated concepts.
It is the process that makes science work, not the people, not their beliefs.
So no, not at all like the dark ages of knowledge suppression by religious dictatorships
It seems to me that many religious people cannot fathom this distinction, because they seems to only know one way of thinking: dictation by authority.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by Jaf, posted 02-08-2014 10:44 PM Jaf has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 173 by Jaf, posted 02-08-2014 11:35 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(2)
Message 168 of 238 (718812)
02-08-2014 11:07 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by Jaf
02-08-2014 10:46 PM


Re: Gap-toothed creationists
We'll the bible is yec, which is why I don't get the popes mates advocating for theistic evolution.
And that should be a clue that your premise that the bible is yec is false. There are many christians that follow the bible but are not yec, and cover the rest of the field of creationism from old earth creationist to theistic creationist.
And this should also be a clue that the problem is not between the bible and science but the yec views and science.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by Jaf, posted 02-08-2014 10:46 PM Jaf has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(4)
Message 169 of 238 (718813)
02-08-2014 11:20 PM
Reply to: Message 165 by Jaf
02-08-2014 10:49 PM


Re: You're not doing so well...
I understand how you would like me to behave but the undertone of many responses is very subjective and non scientific and a personal attack.
A couple of years ago you would have experienced a lot of reprimands for language and personal attacks -- you have been allowed a LOT of leeway to bare your soul ... and the picture was not pretty.
You benefit from relaxed enforcement in an effort to encourage more creationist participation. My opinion is that bending over backwards does not help when what is desired is creationists that debate with substance, arbuments supported by evidence rather than just assertions based on fantasy.
I find it curious that creationists will claim a superior morality based on their beliefs but fail to exhibit model behavior.
So it is not so much that I want you to behave according to my standards but that I expect you to behave according to your standards of good behavior -- you are an ambassador for your beliefs.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by Jaf, posted 02-08-2014 10:49 PM Jaf has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by Jaf, posted 02-08-2014 11:31 PM RAZD has replied
 Message 174 by Jaf, posted 02-08-2014 11:41 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 171 of 238 (718815)
02-08-2014 11:28 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by Jaf
02-08-2014 5:01 PM


Re: Gap-toothed creationists
You deny insulting my intellect, tisk tisk, it is what you guys do all day long, you claim some intellectual academic higher ground that doesn't exist any more than any moral high ground exists.
I have said undereducated ignorant -- which just means that you don't know -- and that leaves you intellectually stunted, but it does not say you are incapable of learning, that is a choice you make: learn or remain ignorant.
Curiously I don't see wanting to be ignorant as a good thing, not for any one person, and certainly not for a nation.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by Jaf, posted 02-08-2014 5:01 PM Jaf has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 176 of 238 (718860)
02-09-2014 8:40 AM
Reply to: Message 172 by Jaf
02-08-2014 11:31 PM


so you lied about membership too?
Yes I was here few years ago and that has changed ...
So you know you have been given a lot of latitude.
... but the anti creationist anti Christ vibe and attitude of the members is the same, mate ...
which is not anti-Christian but against arguments that are demonstrably anti-fact and anti-reality like most of yec beliefs ... not all Christians are yec, so your claim is not valid.
... if you insult people you get insulted back it's rather pathetic to accuse me for being the instigator of insults and adhom.
And yet all one needs to do is review your first posts ... as jaf

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by Jaf, posted 02-08-2014 11:31 PM Jaf has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 220 of 238 (854981)
06-14-2019 4:10 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
11-10-2013 6:46 PM


Restatement of the OP
quote:
In this thread I propose to discuss why "creationism" in general, and "Young Earth Creationism (YEC)" in particular are BAD for the US.
Reason #1: It interferes with the proper education of young people, both in terms of rational thinking and in terms of scientific literacy.
Reason #2: It interferes with the supposedly informed behavior of elected officials, at the local, state and national levels, both in terms of rational thinking and in terms of scientific literacy.
The earth is very old -- over 4.5 billion years old -- according to objective empirical evidence and sound, validated scientific processes. (1)
There was no world wide flood (WWF) -- according to objective empirical evidence from genetics that show no universal "bottleneck" of every single species living or extinct at any singular time in the natural history of life on earth. (2)
Anyone who claims to believe otherwise is, to borrow from Dawkin's, either
  1. stupid -- unable to understand the evidence, or
  2. ignorant -- unaware of the massive amount of evidence for this, or
  3. misinformed -- taught false information (see (3) definition #2 below), usually by a "trusted" source, or
  4. deluded -- developed a false belief on their own (see (3) definition #3 below), for reasons of their own, or
  5. insane -- clinging to a belief that has been falsified by evidence (see (3) definition #4 below), or
  6. malicious -- lying in order to delude others.
Why is this BAD?
It seems rather obvious to me that any teaching in schools that is based on stupid, ignorant, misinformed, deluded, insane or malicious information is bad education, leading to misinformed or deluded students at best. Certainly this is not appropriate for education in a "leading" country.
It also seems rather obvious to me that any governmental decisions, whether at local, state or national levels, based on stupid, ignorant, misinformed, deluded, insane or malicious information is a bad decision.
Symptomatic of this in the US is the degree of Climate Change Denial by members of congress, based on false beliefs that are interfering with rational action regarding this pending massive change to the world as a whole.
Perhaps there should be a scientific literacy test for government representatives ...
Enjoy.
References:
  1. ) See Age Correlations and An Old Earth, Version 2 No 1 for some of the evidence that refutes a Young Earth.
  2. ) See No genetic bottleneck proves no global flood for discussion of this evidence.
  3. ) de•lu•sion -noun (Based on the Random House Dictionary, Random House, Inc. 2013. )
    1. an act or instance of deluding.
    2. the state of being deluded.
    3. a false belief or opinion: delusions of grandeur.
    4. Psychiatry: a fixed false belief that is resistant to reason or confrontation with actual fact: a paranoid delusion.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by RAZD, posted 11-10-2013 6:46 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 221 by RAZD, posted 06-14-2019 4:13 PM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 221 of 238 (854983)
06-14-2019 4:13 PM
Reply to: Message 220 by RAZD
06-14-2019 4:10 PM


Re: Restatement of the OP
In brief, "creationism" in general, and "Young Earth Creationism (YEC)" in particular are BAD for the US because it involves wrong and misleading information and that interferes with scientific literacy.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by RAZD, posted 06-14-2019 4:10 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 235 by RAZD, posted 06-24-2019 8:14 AM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(2)
Message 235 of 238 (855851)
06-24-2019 8:14 AM
Reply to: Message 221 by RAZD
06-14-2019 4:13 PM


Fundamental Belief BAD for the US because it involves wrong/misleading information
To be more specific:
  1. Scientific evidence shows the earth is at least 4.5 billion years old. Any belief otherwise is false.
  2. There is NO evidence that scientifically supports a world wide flood. There were many local floods, but no universal flood. Any belief otherwise is false.
  3. The Grand Canyon was formed over hundreds of years by erosion of the riverbed -- standard geological processes -- and not by world wide flood overflow (which never occurred because there was NO such flood). Any belief otherwise is false.
  4. There is NO evidence that scientifically supports creation of "kinds" of life. The evidence shows life evolving from single cell organisms that originated over 3.5 billion years ago. Any belief otherwise is false.
These points have been argued on several threads on this forum, and to date, not one has been refuted by any fundamentalist believer by any argument that stands up to scientific evaluation.
Science does not "prove" theories, but it does disprove false beliefs.
de•lu•sion -noun (American Heritage Dictionary 2009)
  1. a. The act or process of deluding.
    b. The state of being deluded.
  2. A false belief or opinion: labored under the delusion that success was at hand.
  3. Psychiatry A false belief strongly held in spite of invalidating evidence, especially as a symptom of mental illness: delusions of persecution.
Continued belief of falsehoods in spite of invalidating evidence is delusion, and it interferes with scientific literacy when people try to refute the scientific facts with ad hoc and other specious arguments based on their false beliefs, fantasies, or their imagination.
This is dangerous because it leads to denial of science in general. For a specific example the denial of the climate crisis we are facing.
See original post, Message 1, for reference.
Enjoy.
Edited by RAZD, : .
Edited by RAZD, : ..

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 221 by RAZD, posted 06-14-2019 4:13 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 238 of 238 (855961)
06-25-2019 7:50 AM
Reply to: Message 237 by Faith
06-24-2019 8:05 PM


Personal interpretations
Bible believers do not worship the Bible, we treat it as the source of information about God and His doings on this Earth, having no other source of information about any of that. ...
Except, of course, the mountains of evidence of reality as uncovered by science, such as the evidence for the over 4.5 billion year age of the earth, the evidence of all life evolving over 3.5 billion years from single cell life forms, or the evidence of many local floods but the absence of any evidence supporting a global flood.
... And Creationism takes many forms, especially since the Bible doesn't give much information, ...
Or in other words, open to interpretation of what is real and what is fantasy. The trouble comes when these interpretations are falsified by objective empirical evidence of reality (whether due to "God and His doings on this Earth" or natural causes).
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by Faith, posted 06-24-2019 8:05 PM Faith has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024