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Author Topic:   Why "YEC"/Fundamentalist Creationism is BAD for America
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 98 of 238 (718600)
02-07-2014 6:50 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by Jaf
02-07-2014 6:39 PM


Gap-toothed creationists
The rule of ad hominem use in debate is that when you resort to insults rather than dealing with the arguments, that you have lost the debate.
http://onegoodmove.org/fallacy/attack.htm
quote:
The person presenting an argument is attacked instead of the argument itself. This takes many forms. For example, the person's character, nationality or religion may be attacked. Alternatively, it may be pointed out that a person stands to gain from a favourable outcome. Or, finally, a person may be attacked by association, or by the company he keeps.
So not only do you not have evidence on your side, you don't have logic on your side.
Keep up the good work and you can show that creationist beliefs are morally bankrupt.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by Jaf, posted 02-07-2014 6:39 PM Jaf has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by Jaf, posted 02-08-2014 12:22 AM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(2)
Message 100 of 238 (718620)
02-07-2014 8:24 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by Jaf
02-07-2014 6:45 PM


Re: Ape-tooth monkeys
Are you a theistic evolutionist. ....
Not that it matters what your beliefs are when dealing with knowledge of reality ... I am a Deist, and I believe that science is the best way to understand the scope and breadth of creation and that science is the best available explanation for how creation has occurred.
... Is god not allowed to use similar materials, ...
When we look into the details, this simplistic view does not explain the evidence. For instance:
Notice how similar these two creatures are, they are about the same size and weight, there are visible differences in coloration, but it looks like the body plans are more similar than chimps and humans ...
And yet the one on the right has a pouch to carry young -- it is a marsupial, and the "similar materials" used are more closely associated with kangaroos and koala bears than with the one on the left, including skull bones and jaw\teeth types ...
While the one on the left is a placental mammal, and the "similar materials" used are more closely associated with rabbits and polar bears than with the one on the left, including skull bones and jaw\teeth types ...
... clearly this is what he did, ...
Obviously "similar materials" could easily have been used to create virtually identical organisms in different locations, but these two animals falsify that hypothesis.
... manufacturers do this all the time. ...
And when manufacturers do this there is no nested hierarchy of the development of the products -- this would be like taking parts of a cat and parts of a kangaroo to make a new organism, it doesn't happen in the natural world.
If this was part of how organisms were manufactured then we should see organisms and traits that are much better than the ones we see that are just sufficiently functional to survive. For instance we should expect taking parts of the octopus eye, that has the light sensors facing forward with the nerves behind the retina and that focuses by moving the retina, with parts of the mammal eye, that although it has a backwards facing fixed retina, focuses by changing the shape of the lens -- combined you would have a telescopic to microscopic adjustable vision that would never need glasses ... just the way that manufacturers have made zoom lenses by combining different parts from different designs.
... Common ancestor common creator, ...
And the common ancestor is part of the creation ... the mechanism\method of bringing creation to life.
... mate if I was just primate there is no way in Gods good green earth I would be in here chewing the fat with you, I'd be smacking you over the nut and banging your wife, ...
And you clearly are not familiar with the behavior of primates, or why moral behavior exists within the context of social animals, not just humans.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by Jaf, posted 02-07-2014 6:45 PM Jaf has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by Jaf, posted 02-07-2014 10:24 PM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 105 of 238 (718636)
02-07-2014 10:29 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by Jaf
02-07-2014 10:24 PM


Re: Ape-tooth monkeys
I was asking the science catholic not you, I know your god is Darwin.
Then you are unable to understand simple concepts you have been told, but feel you can pontificate ad nauseum about your ignorance, with pride in your lack of knowledge.
How curious. Please feel free to keep demonstrating how intellectually bankrupt you are. Maybe you can come up with something valid by accident.
Edited by RAZD, : ...

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by Jaf, posted 02-07-2014 10:24 PM Jaf has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by Jaf, posted 02-07-2014 10:30 PM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 108 of 238 (718639)
02-07-2014 10:35 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by Jaf
02-07-2014 10:29 PM


set theory
Just because someone invents a classification doesn't mean I belong to it, you blokes can't agree on what a freakin species is yet.
It's how set theory works as a way of seeing if things are related.
We can apply the same system in genetics.
It's the simple basics of cladistics.
Something else you are likely ignorant of ... yes?

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by Jaf, posted 02-07-2014 10:29 PM Jaf has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by Jaf, posted 02-08-2014 6:59 AM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(4)
Message 110 of 238 (718642)
02-07-2014 11:10 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by Jaf
02-07-2014 10:30 PM


Gap-toothed creationists
I don't have letters after my name as an excuse for intellectual immorality
No you are doing very well all on your own. I note that the topic here is
Why "YEC" Creationism is BAD for America
And you just keep proving that creationism is bad, intellectually and morally stunted.
Keep it up. I couldn't hope for a better example.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Jaf, posted 02-07-2014 10:30 PM Jaf has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by Jaf, posted 02-07-2014 11:31 PM RAZD has replied
 Message 115 by Jaf, posted 02-08-2014 12:15 AM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(3)
Message 122 of 238 (718669)
02-08-2014 7:48 AM
Reply to: Message 112 by Jaf
02-07-2014 11:31 PM


Re: Gap-toothed creationists
You sir are what I call an ...
Curiously it doesn't matter in the slightest what name-calling you do, it just demonstrates more and more that you have no argument, that your belief cannot be supported with actual everyday evidence and that you are upset about that.
Could be because what you believe is not worth believing if you have no argument and it cannot be supported with actual everyday evidence.
When I look at evolution I can see it happening, and that is a very strong bit of evidence that evolution is occurring in the world ... the fact that you can see it everywhere.
But please ... feel free to continue your example of how bad creationist beliefs are for intellectual development ... you are doing an excellent job.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by Jaf, posted 02-07-2014 11:31 PM Jaf has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by Jaf, posted 02-08-2014 4:50 PM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(3)
Message 123 of 238 (718670)
02-08-2014 7:56 AM
Reply to: Message 116 by Jaf
02-08-2014 12:22 AM


Re: Gap-toothed creationists
You started the ad hom iif I recall when you insulted my intellectual capacity to understand your beloved religion, hey, just like atheists can read the bible and then wipe their asses on it, we can read "science " too.
But I haven't insulted your intellectual capacity, just noted it for what it is: you are the one who demonstrated that you don't understand it.
And swearing doesn't make your argument any more intellectual.
Sad but true.
Edited by RAZD, : ..

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Jaf, posted 02-08-2014 12:22 AM Jaf has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by Jaf, posted 02-08-2014 5:01 PM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 124 of 238 (718671)
02-08-2014 8:07 AM
Reply to: Message 115 by Jaf
02-08-2014 12:15 AM


Re: Gap-toothed creationists
To be fair with you RAZD you are obviously passionate about your beliefs, I would like evolution teaching banned as well but it's a free world dude.
Sadly for you, evolution is a science and not a belief system, and your inability to understand this once again is demonstrated, thank you.
Children deserve to be taught knowledge and the ways to improve knowledge -- and that is how science works. They should be taught logic and critical thinking and how to explore knowledge without bias to beliefs.
When you look around you everyday and see the process of evolution occurring and that understanding evolution leads to a deeper understanding of this fact, then that too is something that we should share with children.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by Jaf, posted 02-08-2014 12:15 AM Jaf has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by Jaf, posted 02-08-2014 5:18 PM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 125 of 238 (718672)
02-08-2014 8:10 AM
Reply to: Message 121 by Jaf
02-08-2014 6:59 AM


Re: set theory and the null set
I learned a new word from your esteemed leader, called gish galloping, smart ass told me to google it, it means, "sorry you have presented far too much evidence in this thread and if we let it though we are basically finished so sorry we aren't going to , is that cool with you?" Then he closed by saying now if you don't mind I'm off to do some actual work that people pay me for, yeah that's from the lovely chap who runs the show here, scientists, lol.
So I take it that you don't understand set theory ... or the gish gallop ...
Another shining example of creationist thinking and intellectual capacity.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by Jaf, posted 02-08-2014 6:59 AM Jaf has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 130 of 238 (718707)
02-08-2014 1:38 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by New Cat's Eye
02-08-2014 10:09 AM


Re: Ape-tooth monkeys
Just because someone invents a classification doesn't mean I belong to it
Actually, it does, regardless of whether or not you, personally, accept the classification.
You also don't have the ability to decide that you are not an ape.
What jaf could argue is that the classifications are not distinctive enough, that it either allows non-apes to be classified as apes (which is done by presenting evidence of this), or that it doesn't discriminate enough to exclude the jafs from the group (which would have to be some criteria that applied to the other apes would not result in their exclusion).
That is what a proper scientific response would be, rather than the childish "I'm not but what are you" schoolyard taunt. But I doubt jaf is up to it, but I can wait to see.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-08-2014 10:09 AM New Cat's Eye has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by Jaf, posted 02-08-2014 4:55 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(2)
Message 131 of 238 (718710)
02-08-2014 3:45 PM


Creationist Failure -- predictions
As we saw in the Nye vs Ham debate the main reason Nye did so well was in his emphasis on the ability of evolution (in specific and science in general) to make predictions -- and that creationism was unable to make predictions. This of course is one of the main reason that creationism is not science.
But there is also the problem of explanations that cover all the evidence.
Let's look at some:
  1. Number of zygotes needed to achieve a viable pregnancy: between 50% and 75% never implant on the uterus wall, and about half of the remaining end up with miscarriages of one sort or another (empty embrio sacks to non viable organs) ...
    Evolution explains this creationism doesn't
  2. Fetal development through several stages with striking similarities for similar organisms ...
    Evolution explains this, creationism doesn't
  3. Genetic similarity between similar organisms (see Message 40 from the debate thread) ...
    Evolution explains this, creationism doesn't
  4. The fusion of gene 2 in humans
    is not predicted or explained by creationism, but evolution not only predicts it but predicts how we know that this fusion occurred -- telomeres in the center and two centromere locations with one being disabled (which means there is no rational reason for it from a creationist point of view)
  5. Nested hierarchies
    are a prediction of evolution, with branches occurring at random times and without any apparent end well into the very deep past. which is observed in both the fossil record and the genetic record
    While creationists can claim that "after their kind" would predict limited nested hierarchies, with each kind having separate hierarchies ... and it also would predict a universal bottleneck in all kinds at the same time -- the purported flood event -- and none of this is observed in either morphological or genetic evidence, ...
This short list is just a sample of the evidence that supports evolution and the failure of creation to explain the evidence.
Why should anyone want to teach a belief system that doesn't explain the evidence or make valid predictions?

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 136 of 238 (718718)
02-08-2014 4:57 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by Jaf
02-08-2014 4:50 PM


Re: Gap-toothed creationists
It doesn't matter a titter the rubbish that you scrawl on the walls In here day in day out. There is way that seems right to RAZD but in the end it leads to death.
and again the creationist quiver is empty ... nothing in the argument for what explains the evidence, nothing for predictions ... nothing worth teaching in science class and no approach for investigating or learning new information.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by Jaf, posted 02-08-2014 4:50 PM Jaf has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by Jaf, posted 02-08-2014 5:43 PM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 143 of 238 (718726)
02-08-2014 5:25 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by Jaf
02-08-2014 5:18 PM


reality vs fantasy?
Is creation taught in secular schools and universities as fact in the USA?
No. It is against the constitution ...
... But some creationists want to change that ...
... and they advance arguments as intellectually and factually filled as your own.
But outside of school YEC beliefs stunt productive education and development.
Edited by RAZD, : .

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by Jaf, posted 02-08-2014 5:18 PM Jaf has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by Jaf, posted 02-08-2014 5:39 PM RAZD has replied
 Message 148 by Jaf, posted 02-08-2014 5:48 PM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 159 of 238 (718797)
02-08-2014 10:08 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by Jaf
02-08-2014 5:39 PM


Re: reality vs fantasy?
So what your saying is creationists are seeking a political solution to ensure creationism is taught in schools, is that correct?
Yes, and the problem with this is that knowledge is not decided by popularity or by voting -- especially by people that are undereducated and ignorant of the details that go into scientific knowledge.
Edited by RAZD, : ..

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by Jaf, posted 02-08-2014 5:39 PM Jaf has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by Jaf, posted 02-08-2014 10:44 PM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 160 of 238 (718801)
02-08-2014 10:14 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by Jaf
02-08-2014 5:43 PM


Re: Gap-toothed creationists
Can you tell me your definition of a creationist please?
at it's most basic someone who believes in some form of creation.
creationism is broken down into various flavours:
Creationism - Wikipedia
Of these the Young Earth Creationists (YEC) are -- imho -- as deluded as flat earth believers, because the age of the earth is demonstrably older than 6,000 years by several factors by simple counting methods.
And that delusion is why their beliefs should not be included in public school science classes.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by Jaf, posted 02-08-2014 5:43 PM Jaf has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by Jaf, posted 02-08-2014 10:46 PM RAZD has replied

  
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