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Author Topic:   Bill Nye vs. Ken Ham
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(7)
Message 16 of 824 (715512)
01-06-2014 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by ringo
01-06-2014 10:46 AM


Make a mockery of it
He should go dressed as a clown and honk a horn for every pratt Ham uses

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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AZPaul3
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Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 17 of 824 (715517)
01-06-2014 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by ringo
01-06-2014 10:46 AM


Re: The "debate" has already occurred
Maybe we could get Goofy to debate the Hamburglar.
That actually might work as a Plan B. I think RAZD's honking horn idea deserves first consideration.

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 18 of 824 (716408)
01-15-2014 11:10 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by AZPaul3
01-06-2014 11:59 AM


Bill Nye
This might be why he's doing it
If You Didn't Love Bill Nye Before You See This, You'll Love Him After (Or You're A Cold Robot) - Upworthy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

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Tempe 12ft Chicken
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 438
From: Tempe, Az.
Joined: 10-25-2012


(2)
Message 19 of 824 (716414)
01-16-2014 9:42 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by RAZD
01-15-2014 11:10 PM


Re: Bill Nye
I think the important thing to understnad is who Bill says he does it for in that video. It is not about the adult Creationists that will attend the debate, nor is about the adult science lovers, who already agree with evolution and scientific discovery. Rather, to him, the education of children, especially those dwelling under ignorant teachings, is the most important aspect.
I think he knows that he won't turn any of the ardent creationists away from their beliefs, but he may implant a kernel of knowledge into some of the young people who are brought along with their parents. Now, even though their parents' tried to stop them from receiving an education, they are going to know that there is a different view and that this different view can explain a lot more of the evidence. Plus, if he can make it somewhat fun from his side, these kids may use YouTube to find his episodes of his show, which are all available on YouTube and can continue to educate.

The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. - Richard Dawkins
Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Issac Asimov
If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-endthe person will die. - Neil Degrasse Tyson
What would Buddha do? Nothing! What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. - Robin Williams

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jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 20 of 824 (716417)
01-16-2014 10:00 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Tempe 12ft Chicken
01-16-2014 9:42 AM


Re: Bill Nye
Are you aware of the Browser Noah used?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 21 of 824 (716481)
01-17-2014 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Tempe 12ft Chicken
01-16-2014 9:42 AM


Re: Bill Nye
I think he knows that he won't turn any of the ardent creationists away from their beliefs, but he may implant a kernel of knowledge into some of the young people who are brought along with their parents.
That actually might work.
Ken: So Bill, evolution just can't work because its like a tornado forming a jumbo jet from a junk yard!
Bill: Thanks Ken. (turns to audience) you see, kids, this is an incredibly stupid view of evolution because...
If he's going into this trying to debate Ken specifically, then they're never going to see eye-to-eye and it'll be a disaster.

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 22 of 824 (717866)
02-02-2014 10:02 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by New Cat's Eye
01-17-2014 3:07 PM


Re: Bill Nye - coming soon ... watch this space
http://www.nbcnews.com/...guys-face-its-debatable-2D12028450
quote:
Will evolution debate blow up in the Science Guy's face? It's debatable
Nye acknowledges that he's getting some heat from colleagues for giving creationists a high-profile forum, but insists that an open debate is necessary. "We're just trying to change the world here, and draw attention to these forces in our society that are trying to get creationism in science textbooks," he told NBC News. "My argument is, this is bad for the country, bad for our economy. We can't raise a generation of science students who are not scientifically literate."
He said he's been preparing for the debate by consulting with experts via email and studying how Ham and other creationists have stated their case in past forums.
"Many people have been critical of me for taking this debate because I'm not an expert on evolution," Nye said. "But this is not advanced evolutionary theory. This is not high-school science. It might be elementary-school science. That Mr. Ham and his followers don't embrace it is troubling."
On each side of the debate, there's yet another debate going on: For example, some of the defenders of evolution education think Tuesday's face-off won't be such a bad thing.
"In general, we advise people against doing debates. The biggest thing is that a debate on stage is not how science is decided. It's entertainment, it's theater," said Josh Rosenau, program and policy director for the National Center for Science Education, which defends the teaching of evolution. "But because it's about entertainment, if anyone's going to do it, I think Bill Nye is not a bad choice."
Where do you stand on the evolution debate?
56,321 votes
64% 35,780 votes I side with Bill Nye
31% 17,312 votes I side with Ken Ham
6% 3,229 votes I'm on neither side
Breaks down as expected from Pew poll
The debate is Tuesday ...
Edited by RAZD, : ..

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

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Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


(1)
Message 23 of 824 (718112)
02-04-2014 3:10 PM


Tonight
Why Bill Nye the Science Guy is trying to reason with America's creationists
I probably won't watch it... but I'll be curious tomorrow to find out how it went.
My prediction:
Bill didn't really engage Ham's points at all, but made a bunch of jokes and entertained the kids for the science side.
Encore: Bill brings liquid nitrogen and the cool factor goes ballistic.

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Diomedes
Member
Posts: 995
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013


(3)
Message 24 of 824 (718114)
02-04-2014 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Stile
02-04-2014 3:10 PM


Re: Tonight
My prediction:
Bill didn't really engage Ham's points at all, but made a bunch of jokes and entertained the kids for the science side.
Encore: Bill brings liquid nitrogen and the cool factor goes ballistic.
I am hoping Bill says to the kids: "Hey kids! Wanna see a demonstration of electricity?"
After which he pulls out a Tazer and zaps Ken Ham.

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Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 25 of 824 (718119)
02-04-2014 3:47 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Diomedes
02-04-2014 3:18 PM


Re: Tonight
Stream above.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 26 of 824 (718131)
02-04-2014 7:05 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Modulous
02-04-2014 3:47 PM


The Debate Has Begun
.

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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 27 of 824 (718136)
02-04-2014 8:24 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Modulous
02-04-2014 3:47 PM


Disappointing
Ham was his usual self. Nye should have been prepared for that. He never touched the "you weren't there" PoV.
A poor job all round.

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Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


(3)
Message 28 of 824 (718140)
02-04-2014 10:07 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by NosyNed
02-04-2014 8:24 PM


Re: Disappointing
I tried to keep up. Sorry about typos and editing, the occasional moment where I lose track f what is being said. They both spoke pretty quickly at times. Just in case anyone who can't watch videos wants a summary by a biased observer.
starts with an advert repeating that kids under 12 come free this year.
debate: is creation a viable model of origins in modern era?
ham won toss, will speak 1st
HAM 5 mins opening
should scientists debate creationists. misrepresenataion: indoctrination because of hijacking of secluarist to say that creationists cant be scientists
stuart burgess, engineer from the UK - 'Creationism is the best explanation of origins'
He invents and all sorts!
define terms
science hijacked by secularists
science: to know
different types of knowledge
experimental/observation science - creationists agree with all scientists on these matters
meolecules to man belief nothing to do with developing tech - as its the past, you weren't there you can't observe it. this is origins or historical science. we do that, but its based on the bibical account.
origin science is based on mans ideas such as darwin.
public school textbook use the word science to discuss origin science and observational science
secularists hijack science!
Bible gives a different account, man died for sin, john 3:16.
is creation viable? It is a conflict between philosophical worldviews and is the only viable thing in accord with the bible and observational sciecne.
NYE opening
Two bowties {in audience} that's great. grandfather in rotary, even in those days peopel rented tux with untied bowtie, he didn't know how to tie, so went next door and the guy there said he'd do it if he lay on the bed. it was a perfect bow tie. 'why did i have to lie down?', 'I'm an undertaker'.
Its a story, I don't know if its true. We'll talk today of two stories. Does creation hold up?
What would you be doing if not here? You'd be watching CSI! There is no distinction between observational and historical science. These are Ham's contrivances. There are just laws. CSI is a fictional show but its based on real people doing real work - going to crime scenes and piecing together the past.
Ham believes a flood with a gian wooden boat. 8 zookepers, 14000 animals. The grang canyon will come up. It has fossils! In layers! There is no place where the fossils of one are intermingled. NO species crawled up out of their 'layer'.
Biollions of believers. Live together. These same people don't generally say that the world is 6000 years old. That belief is somewhat unique. USA is about science, if we don't keep up, we will fall behind, not innovate.
I do not believe the creation modle is viable
Ham: 30 mins
creation only viable model.
define terms
science observational science.
craig venter is a great scientist. sequenced human genome
Raymond Damadian: YEC scientist. 6 day creationist. Inventor the MRI scanner in 1969. I can do real science!
Danny Faulkner: Astronomer. on retirement I joined AiG. I like eclipsing binary stars and am well published. Nothing in observational astronomy that contradicts recent creation.
Stuart Burgess: invented a bit on a satellite. He's a biblical creationist.: Many colleagues are sympaythtic to creationism but are afraid of the blowback
when doing observational science they have to assume the laws of nature. Where did logic come from? Can there be half logic? How does Nye account for the laws of logic.
Historicla science: you don't observe the past directly. We can't observe creation, we admit that. But see, what you see in the present is different. Textbooks sometimes acknowledge the difference between observational and historical science (Earth Science quoted as talking about historical geology.
if nye and would agree the coconion hermit boudary and stuff. we'd disagree how long it took to get there. None of us saw it! It's all about interpretation.
Creationists worked on the hubble telescope. They built it fine agreeing on the science but they disagreed on the interpretation of the data.
you can't use radiometric data because we weren't there.
we've only got the present.
creationists work on medicines and vaccines. All scientists have the same observational science.
can nye name one peice of technology from mol to man evolution?
we have the same evidence.
same fossils
same animals
same humans
same dna
same decay
same universe
same evidience!
its a battle over interpreting the past. It's really about worldviews with the same evidence. my starting point is god is ultimate authority. the alternative is that man is.
origins science: we weren't there.
big difference with boservational science
kids aren't being taught to think correctly about this issue
observational science can confirm one's historical science based on origins.
if our origins account then there should be predictions using observational sicne
-cofnirming that intelligence produced life
-confirming after their kind
confirming global flood
one race of humans -
tower of babel god gave languages
_AFTER THEIR KIND:
we have replicas of finches.
Darwin pondered the different beaks. He came up with a tree diagram. 'I think'.
Creationists agree that the finches have a common ancestor.
darwin wasnt thinking of just species.
he had a bigger pictures
'...all organic beings which have ever lived...primordial form'
evolutionary tree of life.
consider the classification system: creationists have researched this. Kinds is about at the family level.
So not that many kinds after all!
Incredibal variability in species so evolution within kinds etc. dogs always dogs.
observational science always confirms this.
take dogs
scientists say there is a single origin for dogs.
more variation in dogs than finches. But dogs are never used as examples of evolution but finches are! Science has been hijacked and evolution has too. BAIT and SWITCh.
Evolution: is used for observable changed
and unobservable changes
i was a science teacher.
students are taught, 'all life is part of a great big tree of life'. We don't deny the changes, but they put it all together in a big tree. That's not observed, its belief. What you do observe dogs and finches, not changing one kind into another.
Observational science confirms creation.
school textbooks are lying.
evolution hijacked bait and switch to indoctrinate.
Lenski is great scientist. 'Evolution on the lab' citrate growing ability is said to be evolution!
Andrew Fabich, yEC, microbiologist Liberty uni. E coli study area. I'm well cited in Nature etc. I don't accept evolution. The E coli evolving over 30k generations, but its not new information, it's just a switch getting turned on and off.
Its not change sufficient for mol - man
=ONE RACE
Darwin said 'higher race' and 'lower race'. One text book in 1914 was racist based on Darwins ideas. Had they started with Bible.
All descendendants of Adam and Eve
Biologically only one race!
Dr Venter:there is only one race: the human race
confirming the creation account.
I could say a lot more. Visit our website.
Is creation viable? Define the terms. understand how they are being used to impose anti god on kids.
difference between historical and observational statements: Belief.
You cna't observe the age of the earth.
hijacking of science and evolution bait and switch
At creation museum we are teaching kinds to think critically, and we should be in charge of education!
Evolutionists should admit their belief elements.
Creation at aig mean: Account on the bible. Genesis as literal history like JEsus. AT the museum we walk them through creation and sin and death corruption, catastrophe, flood (billions of dead things buried by water), confusion, christ god's son stepped into history. Cross. Consummation.
Marriage should be man and woman. God invented marraige. Man and woman. It's all found in Genesis. It's foundational to doctrine. christian apologia dogma and so on... we don't apologize that's what we believe!
IF you allow creation in schools, that is religion (they say).
Creationists are opposed to academics in the media. More complaining about media and textbook standards. THey are using science as naturalism. imposing the religion of naturalism on students. That is a relgion!
Battle of authority. Who is the authoriuty, man or god?
Naturalism? Morals? Marriage? Kill the old, abortion
With God there are absolutes to these moral question
moral relativism is on the rise because of indoctrination in naturalism in school.
if we teach them it was natural, they might be looking in the wrong places when they do real science! They need to know sin is related to disease or they might not be able to cure it!!??
NYE -- 30 mins
I learned something mr ham, thank you.
Does the model hold up, is it viable?
We're in kentucky on layer upon layer of limestone.
I picked u this piece of limeston that has afossil
There are coral animals. They lived their entire lives. 20 years sometimes. We are standing on millions of layers. How could this have happened in 4000 years since the flood. Not enough time in 4000 years.
We drill into the ice, to get long ice rods. These are made of snow ice. It must have ancient atmosphere in the bubbles. The bubles come in layers summer/winter. There are 680,000 layers!
680,000 / 4000 years since flode = 170 summer-winter cycles per year
Bristlecone pines. Some of them over 6000 years old. One tree is nearly 10,000 years old. There was an enormous flood? Tress won't survive, try it yourself! Grand Canyon is fantastic. Layer upon layer. IF there was a flood, would there not have been churning? How did they settle out and form layers within 4000 years?
We can see that it takes a long time for sediments to turn to stone with observation.
Wouldn't the layers be even with no intrusions if they formed all at the same time recently?
Wouldn't there have been a Grand Canyon everywhere if it was water draining from the flood?
Look at layers carefully there are beautiful fossils. Never see one of these mixed in with these. If it happened in short timek, if the water drained away, would there not be turbulence, wouldnt they get mixerd. Find one example of it anywhere - not a single one has been found and we've looked and looked.
Fossil schools (homonids it looks like) not any of them is a gorilla. Ham claims There was just humans and other species where would modern humans in these skulls. We are on there. Look it up.
A boat landed in Middel Eastl, but Australia is populated with animals that made it over 4000 years to australia. Are there any kangaroo fossils or bones between the two places? A land bridge that allowed it that has disappeared? No ones ever found any evidence of this.
It doesn't seem to hold up.
4,000 years since the flood.
7,000 ham's kinds.
lowest estimate there at 9 million. but likely 16,000,000 species today.
15993000 / (4000)(365.25)
11 new species a day!
A new species a day! It would be enormous news.
There isn't enough time.
I worked on 747s. I was well supervised, relax!
I travelled washington state a bit. You can drive along enormous boulders on the ground. Huge. sitting on ground. There used to be a lake in Montana, the evidence is overwhelming. Multiple floods in Washington. Go Seahawks! Heavier rocks would sink to the bottom in a flood. Here they are, right on the surface! All over the place. If just 4000 years old?
Consider: inherent in this worldview. Noah and his family was able to build boat unskilled to house 14000 animals. feed them. run a test. a scientific test. THe Wyoming, a six masted scooner. HAd a motor for winching cables. Great difficulty, not as big as titanic. It would twist in the sea, all ways. All that twisting meant leaking and it eventually sank.
14 crewman built by skilled wood ship builders, built a smaller boat than the ark. 8 unskilled people did better?
400 species at National Zoo. Satellite picture. Science is awesome! On 163 hectares. Can they maintain 14,000 species on sucha boat?
Science, the ability to predict. Law should be predict what will happen.
Example: Trad science. We find a sequence in a fossil record. A succession. Old records so some pieces are missing. Lungfish jump from pond to pond and amphibians. So people wondered if there an animal that lived that had characteristics of both.
There was a fossil marsh in Canada. Loads of swamp fossils! Using trad science, the ages of the rocks would make this a great palce to look for such a transitional
Tiktallik: several speciments.
THey predicted this animal might be found and it was foudn.
YEC model does not make predictions.
Certain fish topminnows: can have sex with themselves. why does any organisms have sex? There are more bacteria in your tummy than there are hgumans on earth. Think of the trouble animals amnd plants go through, why bother? Answer: your enemies. Not lions or tigers or bears - no germs and parasites!
When yu have sex you have a new mixture. The topminnowsd that reproduced sexually had less parasites than the ones that reproduced asexually.
The inbetweeners (who do both) have intermediate parasites.
Evolution predicts. How else would you explain this?
BIG BANG THEORY YOU GOT TO ME KIDDING ME GOD
Why did a Pastor put that up? Why do we accept in the outside world the big bang. Edwin Hubble sitting at mt wilson telescope. He found the stars are moving apart. Wasn't sure why. But it was clear.
People talked for decades.
Fred Hoyle remarked about 'big bang', and it was remarkable insight.
Still questioned for decades.
Radio astronomy, backgrouind hiss. tried to troubleshoot. found cmbr. astronomers observed it. it matched the astronomers predictions.
big bang 13.7 billion years ago.
Stars create elements.
Rubidium strontium. it becomes spontaneously. when molten lava crystallises it locks the rubidium and strontium in place, you can tell how old they are, if you are careful. when that stuff falls on fossils you can tell how old they are.
3 toed horses, buried by a volcano!
If you had heart problems, they'd cut you open.
you can use rubidium to avoid having to cut you open.
Distance to stars. WE can measure it using angles.
There are billions of stars more than 6000 light years from here. How could there be so many stars that far away if the world is 6000 years old.
Ice older than the earth
trees oilder than the earth
rocks older than the earth
could noah build that ark??#
Is it viable? No. Absolutely not.
In the constitution, it says 'To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts'
Don't raise students who don't understand our place in the unvierse and natural law. we need to innovate to be competitive in a global world.
HAM - rebuttal 5 min
As I said, yu can't observe age of the earth. historical iorigin science.
yes we admit our historical science is based on bible, 6 days. add it all up from adam to jesus to today you get 6000 years.
earths age is 4.5 billion years old
radiometric dating
we observe decay
but
when talking about past we have a problem
engineers searching for coal. reached basalt layer with would in it. potassium argon dating 45 million years old. The wood was carbon dated at 45000 years. We got a problem.
St Helens eruption
0.35 million yers for the whole
seperated them out got different dates for the different rock types.
assume parent isotropes, you weren't there.
assume the daughters produced by in situ decay.
lots of assumptions in dating
no dating method gives absolute date.
lots of christians believe in millions of years.
inconsistency.
millions of years of death? Death is the result of man's sin. It says so in the bible.
we were vegetarian.
god doesn't think tumours aren't god
thorns came after the curse
100s of dating methods. many contradict billions years. THere is one dating method: from the witness who was there: GOD.
nothing in science contradicts a young age.
NYE - rebuttal
45 million year old rock and 45000 year old trees. Maybe one slid ontop of the other seems more reasonable.
why all asteroids seem to be so close to the same date?
people expected a bit more of a spread.
i understand you believe the translated into english bible as better than what we can observe for understanding origins.
Are fish sinners that they should get disease and die?
you can't observe the past? We do that in astronomy! You're looking at the past now, the speed of light is finite. You can't seperate the laws of now with the laws of the past. if you insist that the laws have changed, then its just magical, its not what we want in mainstream science.
All animals were veggies?
Remarkable.
Lions have teeth that aren't setup for brocolli. I need a little more proof. I give you teeth, you give me 30 centuries old translated texts that has been copied a lot. Instead of lion being vegeteraians on the ark, lions are lions. Not consistent with what a reasonable man would expect.
If we accept Ham's POV that the Bible translated into American English srerves as a science text and they will interpret it for you. This means that Mr Ham's word/interpretation of these words is to be more respected with what you can find in your backyard here in Kentucky.
ARe we supposed to take your word instead of what we can observe in the universe around us?
HAM - re rebuttal
45,000 year old was inside the basalt encased. The laws of logic. Uniformity of nature. Only makes sense with God, which is why we can do sicence
you said Ham's Model or view. Not just me. We have phd scientists who agree! there are lots of creation scientists.
I believe you are confusing species and kinds. God didn't create species but kinds. Not species but kinds on the ark. WE've researched this. They have predicted that less 1000 kinds on the ark, so only about 2000 aniumals.
Tree rings? Ice layers?
We're talking about the past. We didn't see the tree rings forming, or ice layers forming.
Plane crashed and had loads of ice built on it within a few years. 250 ft in 45 years?
Bears have teeth like lions but they are largely vegetarian. Sharp teeth doesn't equal meat eater. Interpretation is key.
We believe in post flood catastrophes.
Why would you say noah waS Unskilled?
Evolutionary view, saying they aren't as good as us in the past. Who says Noah couldn't do it. The Chinese built boats.
We've rebuilt 1% of ark it has things to stop it twisting.
Secularists havea problem getting light out into the universe. in the model 15 billion years they can only get it about halfway so they need inflation. We have scientists to explaint
NYE - re rebuttal
dissatisfied i am.
the ice layers require summer/winter cycle.
Saying there was only 2000 makes the problem worse - we need even more evolution!
It doesn't seem reasonable that Noah was better than 19th century ship builders.
When people make assumptions on radiomentric data - based on previous experience not out of whole cloth.
why we should accept your word for it that natural law changed 4000 years ago with no record of it? There are human populations older than that. It's not reasonable to me.
There are billions of deeply religious people. community and nuruture and support in their faiths and churches, but they don't all accept your pov. what is to become of them, in your view?
Ham's POV is based on OT. I want explanations based on science. Things each of us can do. Trying to outdo characters on CSI.
When there is an idea that isn't tenable - we throw it away.
If you can find a fossil that has swum between the layers. Bring it on.
write your paper!
your word on what a book means is more important than what i can see with my own eyes.
we need scientists for the future and engineers. innovation and world leader we need science education.
QUESTIONS
Ham - HOW DOES creationism account for celestial bodies
moving further apart
what functin in grand design?
god created heavens and the earth. It says he stretches out the heavens. I don't know why. god made the heavens for his glory. Its how great he is how vast he is,
jesus wow what a god!
_________________break______________________
NYE: wouldn't be great if we can find the answer to why we're here.
HAM: There is a book that says where matter came from. it says 'in the beggining god created heaven and earth' Where did the information and language of life? Bible tells us things are made of the unseen.
Energy space mass time universe was created by god, its the only thing that makes sense.
HAM - what evidence other than bible supports creation
sometimes the majority gets it wrong. {repeated several times w ith examples}
what was the question?
I talked of a few earlier. If there are kinds what are the consequences of that. You can't talk scientifically of the past. We can be sicentists of the present.
NYE- I have to disabuse of you an idea. I anybody makes a discovery that changes the way people view natural law science embraces them! Like Pasteur. Tell us why the uinverse is accelration, why these mother's are geting sick.
Evolutionary explanations of life is a mechanism that complexity powered by the sun.
NYE - How did consciousness come from matter
Don't know. Great question.
I've never seen a dog paralysed by self doubt.
Actually I have.
The joy of discovery - that's what drives us. We don't know where it comes from, but we're trying to find out. We have one ancestor as far we can tell. If you can find a second genesis - a second start to life - there are people looking into this, this would be a fantastic discovery.
I challenge the young people here to investigate that very question.
If we don't embrace science we will fall behind economically.
HAM - there is a book out there that does document where consciuosness came from. he made man in his image and breathed into man and he became living. God gave it to us.
I have a mystery.
You talk about the joy of discovery. But when you die and its all over what's the point of discovery? I love the joy discovery cos its gods creation.
HAM - what if anything would change your mind?
well the answer to that question is: I'm a Christian. I can't prove it to you. But God has definitely through his word and erm shown himself in the person of jesus christ and the bible is the word of god. that's where i start from. you can check it in genesis. I can't prove to you. If the bible is the word of god THEN check it out. If you come to god believing that he is that he will reveal himself to you. And you will know. NO no-one's going to convince me that god's word is not true. The model of how the flood happened is subject to change, but that the flood happened will not not be challenged. its my foundation as a christian. you said if you came to faith you'd never give up millions of years?
NYE - One piece of evidence. That the universe is not expanding, that stars are close. That rock layers can form in 4000 years. That you cna reset the atomic clock. Bring on any of those and I'd change immediately.
MR Ham, what can you prove? You keep coming up with explanations of the past. What can you prove in a conventional scientific manner? This is troubling
NYE - outside of radiometric evidence what supports your view of the age of the earth
Age of stars? Radiometric evidence is pretty compelling! Depositional rates is something that reveals 'deep time' a related story there was a mystery as to how the earth be old enough to have evolution occur. If things were any other way things would be different. Radiometric dating does exist. neutrons do become protons. the universe is expanding.
Mr Ham: The skulls. There are many many steps in what appears to be the coming into being of you and me.
HAM - no earth rock was dated that way, it was meteorites! 100s of dating methods, all deal with changes in time. If you assume the start and the rates, most of the dating methods contradict billions of years. You can#t prove
HAM reconcile rate of continents drifting today to the rate they would have had to travel 6000 years ago to reach where they are now?
Historical science v observational science. WE've done reserach on this into plate tectonics. WE can see movements today, if you assume that its always been that way in the past, its an assumptions. You cna observe movement, but to assume its always been that way is historical science. WE believe in catastrophic tectonic phenomena. We don't deny the movement, we deny that you can use what you see today to extrapolate to the path.
a global flood would change depositional/concreting rates.
We do believe in an early single continent but the flood.
NYE - If you go into a clock store, they won't see the same thing, are they all wrong? We see sea floor spreading, the earth's magneticf field reversed over the millennia and it leaves a signature as the plates drift apart so you measure the rate. That's how we do it on the outside.
NYE - One word: Favourite colour
Green.
HAM - Observational science P{shows tie{ blue
NYE - second law of thrmo dynamics?
You lose energy to heat. Car engines are 30% thermodynamic efficient. Entropy is the measure of this. The earth is not a closed system. Energy pouring in from sun day and night, that energy drives living things on earth especially plants. 1/3 of they oxygen you breath in kentucky is from the sea, from phytoplankcton. Our power generation depends on precise energy calculations on how much energy is produced. 2nd law thermodynamics is involved in all sorts of stuff.
HAM - You can have all the energy and matter you want, it won't produce life. God imposed information language system and that gave us life. If you have a dead stick add energy and it decays.
before man sinned, things are now running down, now we see 2nd law thermodynamics its out of control now so its running down.
HAM if evidence existent that caused you to admit that YEC was would you believe in god?
You can't prove the age of the earth so there is no hypothetical. Now we can use methods in the present and use assumptions. Creationists use them. You can't ultimately prove the age of the earth/universe. You can look at methods that contradict millions of years. nothing in astronomy contradicts a young unvierse. the bible tells us so. no observational science contradicts us.
Millions of years? Problem with the bible. Death before sin?
You can't prove the age. Bottom line.
NYE - You can prove it with great robustness. You want us to take your word for it. It is more compelling for you, than what I can observe?
Life cannot come from non-life? Are you sure?
It is an extraordinary claim we want to investigate.
wHat do you predict?
NYE - iS ROOM For god in science
there are billions of religious people that accept science. we all benefit from technology. Science is a body knowledge and the process, the means by which we make discoveries. This is not connected with a belief in god. Scientists, head of NiH is devout christian. They are compatabile.
The exception is you, Mr Ham.
You want your word about an ancient text to be more compelling than what we see around us. The problem of the ark the problem of ancient trees, ice cores please address?
HAM - God is necessary for science. Love technology. That's all present stuff. Creationists can be great scientists. But you have to assume the uniformtity of nature and logic. Where does that come from if its all natural processes. Inventing things is different...
HAM - Bible to be taken literally? Toucging pigs be stoned? Marry mutliplee wives?
I take it naturally. If its history you take it as history. Poetry, take it as poetry. etc. As written, and let it speak to you that way. Its gods revelation. Misunderstanding in scriptire. We have laws, there were laws for Israel. Take it out of context and say we should obey those laws - its a miusunderstanding. When men married multiple women there were problems. The bible is a real book, it records people acting out of gods will. They were wrong.
NYE- sounds to me, there are certain you embrace literally and others are poetry. you are taking what you like as literal and others as poetic/ Scientifically as a reasonable man it doesn't seem possible that all those things that contradict the opening of gennsis i should accep the rest. does ham's model hold water does it fly?
NYE have you ever believed that evolution was accomplished through way of a higher power?
Why or why not?
the idea that there is a higher power that has driven events of universe which is one that cannot be proved or disproved. you can't know,. agnostic on that. intelligent design has a fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of nautre. A watch in a field requires a designer, but that's not how nature works. THis is the fundamental insight provided by evolution. It adds complexity through natural selection. The bad designs get eaten by the good ones. We have an explanation that is far more compelling. Nature is bottom up, this is the discovery. it is compelling and fills me with joy and is inconsistent with a top down view
HAM show some function that arose that was not possible from the genetic code before. I talked of Lenskis e coli. that information was already there, just a gene that turned on. there's no new function that can be added. Certainly variation among the kind, but no functions that weren't possible.
HAM - ??
science requires god. why trust the laws of nature? Are they going to be the same tomorrow. Greatest scientists in history were creationists. Modern science came out of this thinking. We can trust logic and nature. We don't trust kids about this they won't be innovative. Secularists are borrowing from christian worldview to invent and discover stuff. there's lots of scientists out there, I have a list on my website, who advance tech and are creationsists.
NYE - reason i don't accept your model is there is no predictive value. it sounds as though you believe your worldview is correct. what became of those that never heard of it? First nations of north america? Condemned or doomed? You say there are no examples? There are cfountless examples of science making predictions.
NYE - numerous evidence of us getting smarter ???
what happens in evolution is survival of the fittest.
not smartest or strongest but those that fit the best.
evidence of humans is everywhere. if a germ shows up like in wwi where more people killed by flu than combatant. the right germ shows up we'll be wiped out. being smarter is not a natural consequence of evolutin, it's worked for us for now. It's how you fit in with nature around you. If the world changes, like the dinosaurs, we can get wiped out. It's not smarter but fitness.
HAM - professor says evident of evolution: blind cave fish. THey're evolving! But they can't do something they could before. It's not survival of the fittest, its survival of survivors. Not getting new function. No example of that at all.
HAM - what is the one thing more than anything upon which yu base your belief
there is a book, called the bible. its unique. i don't know of any religion that has a book that starts with a creation/origins story and an infinite god. flood. tower of babel. if that is true what about the rest? {Jesus Apologetics}
I went through some predictions.
This book should explain what we see, it is specific. They have flood legends all over the place. Creation stories like the bible. You search for truth, he will show you.
NYE - as sagan said 'when you're in love you want to tell the world!'
the information and the process we call science. It fills me with joy to make discoveries I didn't know beofre. It is astonishing, you and I we are one of the ways that the universe knows itself .we are products of the universe. we have come to be because of the universe's existence.
are we alone in the unverse?:
They drive us these questions. Science, the way we know nature is important to me.
If we abandon what our ancesotors knew and the process for how they know it and stop looking for the next answer to the next question. We will be outcompeted. I'm a patriot. We have to embrace science education. Keep science in science clasesses.
LEVEL 2 SNOW EMERGENCY DRIVE CAREFULLY.
_____________________________
I was just disappointed that NYE didn't see the 'we carbon dated something that should be millions of years old but it came back as 45,000 years old' PRATT. It's probably the best argument Ham made to meet Nye's demand for an out of layer fossil.

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 29 of 824 (718143)
02-04-2014 10:53 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Modulous
02-04-2014 10:07 PM


Watch for yourself
Well it seems he did better than anticipated from the reports I've seen. More tomorrow.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Modulous, posted 02-04-2014 10:07 PM Modulous has seen this message but not replied

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Itinerant Lurker
Member (Idle past 2655 days)
Posts: 67
Joined: 12-12-2008


(1)
Message 30 of 824 (718144)
02-04-2014 11:19 PM


Look Familiar?
It's like I've seen this picture before. . .

  
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