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Author Topic:   Why the Flood Never Happened
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17825
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 1392 of 1896 (716755)
01-21-2014 4:43 AM
Reply to: Message 1391 by Faith
01-21-2014 4:10 AM


Re: incised meanders
quote:
And really, even with your explanation it still does. I still don't see any reason why the river SHOULD cut deeper even IF the uplift is very slow. Why SHOULD the erosion match the uplift and what would make it do so?
As I've said the river cuts into the uplift because it's in the way. And there's no big mystery about the rates matching. All that is necessary is that the uplift is slow enough and the rest will follow.
quote:
That could keep it on course even over a small rise, that I grant, but why it should cut deeper into the slope instead of simply slowing down, or even rising behind the slope, even to overflow its banks on the approach up the slope I'm not really sure. It should slow down over the rise of the land and that should work against its cutting deeper.
I've already offered an explanation. What's wrong with it ?
quote:
Again, this doesn't compute for me. ESPECIALLY the steeper the slope. The steeper the slope the more it should act as a barrier, slowing down the water or redirecting it. Of course if the water hits it with GREAT force it may overcome it, but the general rule would have to be the steeper the slope the LESS. erosive force the river would have. If it dams up behind it THEN it could maybe have that amount of force when it breaches the dam.
The more direct the impact, the more force will be directed against the surface. That is simple physics based on simple geometry. The greater the force, the greater the erosive effect. Your "general rule" simply ignores what's going on to slow the water.
Think about it. If the water is slowing, a force must be acting on it. If a force is acting on it there must be a reactive force exerted by the water. Newton's laws of motion tell us that much.
quote:
Oh my aching head, is it really necessary to pronounce such a literal pedantic fact?
It is necessary to point out that simply adding a slight upward slope to the riverbed will not automatically cause the river to depart its course.
quote:
I dunno. At first I thought maybe you were going to convince me but the more I think about your explanation the less convincing it is. The law of gravity works whether the uplift is slow or faster, whether the river is slow or fast and so on.
Obviously you have no understanding at all. There is no violation of the law of gravity involved.
quote:
Amount of erosion should be all about the force or speed of the river, shouldn't it? Plus abrasive contents of course, but that can be the same in either case. And a slope would slow it down. In fact I picture only the upper layer of water, whatever part is higher than the rise, going over the rise, while the lower water is backed up.
No, there's another factor - the geometry which determines how the erosive force is applied to the surface.
Also, think about this. Consider a block of wood being filed. Now imagine a force pushing the far end of the block up against the file (while the other end remains where it is). What is going to happen ?
Edited by PaulK, : Added some clarification

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1391 by Faith, posted 01-21-2014 4:10 AM Faith has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17825
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 1455 of 1896 (716998)
01-23-2014 2:18 AM
Reply to: Message 1439 by Faith
01-22-2014 6:25 PM


Re: enjoy your games
quote:
As usual all that's happening here is people throwing dozens of supposed problems for the Flood at me that I haven't studied, and of course vilifying me for not studying them, problems that of course impress them because they see an OE angle to them and that's all they care about.
So basically you're upset that people care more about the truth than your pride.
quote:
The fact that the strata were all laid down before the tectonic disturbances occurred is clearly evidenced in many ways that I've discussed here, and that seriously calls into question the OE timeline with its time periods and supposed landscapes.
I don't see how. I mean, on what basis do you include that there should be more frequent tectonic events on that region ?
quote:
I think it blasts it to smithereens. And it supports the timeline for the Flood which would sort sediments and account for bazillions of fossils too. All the rest will fall into place some day. Maybe not until Judgment Day unfortunately.
Obviously the Flood is a last-ditch desperate attempt to account for the geological and fossil record by YECs. But it's an obvious failure. Even your own arguments implicitly admit as much, by refusing to consider anything but the most superficial view of the rocks and the fossil record.
quote:
And I also still love my argument about how evolution is defeated by evolution, or the fact that developing new phenotypic varieties diminishes the genetic ability over many generations to continue to vary, ultimately making evolution impossible at the end of any given series of (micro) "evolutionary" changes. Mutations couldn't save this even if they were what you think they are but they are not, they are a legacy of the Fall, just one of the ways disease and destruction are our lot due to sin.
Sure Faith, you love it too much to give it up, even though it's been refuted. Just one more sign that you value your pride over the truth - and expect everyone else to, as well.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1439 by Faith, posted 01-22-2014 6:25 PM Faith has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17825
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 1586 of 1896 (717293)
01-26-2014 4:35 AM
Reply to: Message 1579 by Faith
01-25-2014 5:52 PM


Re: facts vs interpretations
quote:
The familiar complaint by creationists that you all just hand-wave away, that the ToE and the Old Earth are "just theory," has genuine substance to it, it's a serious criticism and not something your definitions can so easily dispense with.
Trying to cast doubt on scientific conclusions by calling them "theories" is hardly a serious argument. Pointing out that the argument is ignorant and false is a valid response, and hardly "hand waving". If creationists are too proud to admit their errors, then that is their problem.
quote:
What you don't seem to recognize is that this definition can apply to an accepted untestable delusion into which you feed facts although there may be better explanations of those facts in reality. In other words this is a recipe for nothing but hardened bias.\
Fortunately science has mechanisms for dealing with that problem. Unless you define "better" as being whatever you happen to like. But that would place more weight on prejudice not less. Creationism lacks such mechanisms, which explains why it is in such a dreadful state.
quote:
A scientifically testable general principle or body of principles offered to explain observed phenomena
This applies ONLY to what I've been calling REAL science or HARD science because first of all it IS about actually OBSERVED phenomena so it IS testable as described above, while the sciences of the ancient unwitnessed prehistoric past deal with one-time events that are not observable or replicable.
Of course you're wrong because there's nothing there demanding that principles or the testing derive from direct observation. Of course, quite a lot of the principles in evolution and geology are tested by direct observation, where that's possible so even that objectin fails to stand.
quote:
We can only guess about how a worldwide Flood would behave for instance because nobody has ever seen one.
Can't we apply what we know about the behaviour of water, for instance, to work out a lot?
Or do you object to that because the results aren't what you would like?
quote:
For the theories of TRUE science, REAL science, REAL WORLD PROOFS OR TESTS to validate or falsify them can be performed by anybody with the means to do so
Noting that those means might include use of the Large Hadron Collider - or construction of an equally powerful facility - what's your problem with either the Old Earth or evolution? Both are open to testing - and have passed many tests.
quote:
YOU CANNOT DO THAT WITH THEORIES ABOUT THE UNWITNESSED OR PREHISTORIC PAST.
Writing that in capitals doesn't make it any less wrong.
quote:
You cannot prove that fossils found in the strata are genetically related to other fossils
Being unable to perform a test that you would like performed doesn't mean that no tests are possible. Indeed, we should ask why we find the pattern of morphological features that we do without genetic relationships? Do you have a testable alternative explanation? At least we can test the relationship between genetic relationships and physical form in existing species.
quote:
You cannot prove they are of any particular age either, because you cannot test your radiometric methods.
Of course we can test radiometric methods. For instance we can apply multiple methods to rocks of similar age and see if they agree. Ask RAZD about that. Or we can apply the same method to rocks where we have an idea of the relative age (from the geometric relationships) and see if the radiometric results are consistent with what we already know.
To sum up, the "just a theory" argument is hopelessly wrong.
The argument about direct observation is a different argument - and also wrong. Not only because it ignore the role of direct observation in geology and evolutionary science, bit because it makes a categorical distinction that does not exist. All observations are indirect to some degree - a witness experiences only the effects of a past event, not the event itself.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1579 by Faith, posted 01-25-2014 5:52 PM Faith has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17825
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


(2)
Message 1843 of 1896 (718109)
02-04-2014 2:00 PM
Reply to: Message 1839 by edge
02-04-2014 1:00 AM


Re: restatement
quote:
How is that? Why would the overlying rocks not deform while the ones underneath do so, assuming both were present at the same time?
I asked Faith that, a while back. She replied with an illustration (from Lyell, IIRC) using layers of cloth topped by a book. She insists that the upper layers were "rigid enough" to avoid deformation without really being rigid. Which looks like a contradiction to me.
quote:
Instead, we have the opposite effect where rounded fragments of the underlying unit are found in the upper. In fact, they are found in troughs within the underlying unit. These things are not possible in the scenario that you attempt to develop.
I've tried pointing that out, too. She just ignored it.
So far as I can tell, her position is that she likes it, so it must be true. Which seems to be her attitude in most things discussed here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1839 by edge, posted 02-04-2014 1:00 AM edge has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17825
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 1848 of 1896 (718123)
02-04-2014 4:12 PM
Reply to: Message 1845 by Faith
02-04-2014 3:31 PM


Re: restatement
quote:
Amount of resistance -- weight, pressure from above -- would apparently have been equal to the force from beneath at that level, so that the effect of the force that created the Great Unconformity and the granite and the schist would not have continued into the strata above.
But that pressure will be greater on the deeper rocks, so surely it should be the upper strata that are distorted, not the lower ?
And obviously it doesn't explain why the transition is so abrupt either. There's no sudden step in the pressure, that gradually reduces as you go up the strata.
quote:
he is demonstrating the buckling or folding of strata by lateral force -- a book on each side-- with a pile of cloths as the strata. Of course he's not trying to prove my scenario but I thought it was a good illustration for that purpose. He has a book on top which keeps the cloth confined to the area between the side books.
As I pointed out at the time, that relies on the rigidity of the book compared to the cloth. But you don't argue for such a difference in rigidity, and I don't think that there is any reason to think that that is even possibly true.
quote:
So to translate it to my idea: the side books of course represent the tectonic force, and the book above represents the weight of the strata from the Tapeats up through the Claron Formation (the uppermost layer of strata from the Kaibab up, now only to be found in the Grand Staircase but originally above the GC too).
If that were correct, the book would prevent the upper layers of cloth from distorting. But it doesn't.
quote:
PaulK says I said the upper strata were rigid-but-not-rigid but I'm not sure what he's remembering from me. They would have been pretty rigid it seems to me, with two miles of strata above compressing them all. Rigid enough to make an effective resistance against the forces from beneath anyway.
This just obviously doesn't work. You need the lower strata to be much less rigid than the higher strata that remain undistorted. But the pressure will be greater, not less.
quote:
I don't make a distinction between the mobility or rigidity of either group of rocks, not sure why you do
Edge is making that distinction, because it HAS to be there for your model to work !
quote:
It's all about the amount of force versus the amount of resistance. A lot of heat and pressure would have been exerted between the upper and lower rocks; If my scenario is right, then that was the point where the two forces balanced each other out -- does seem to me to be about elementary physics. Uplift was all that happened to the upper strata, then the forces dissipated.
According to elementary physics the upward force must be greater than the downward pressure for the uplift to occur at all - and the downward pressure will increase with depth. How does this fit with your idea ?
quote:
Well, you guys all love to tell me that this idea or that is impossible but since you're just guessing too, without actual evidence, I'm not convinced. What you are describing certainly doesn't seem impossible to me. Seems to me that the underlying unit in fact WOULD have been heavily abraded since the strata are tilted there so the broken ends of the strata would be easily abraded, and I don't see why there's a problem with their becoming embedded in the upper layer either, or being rounded either for that matter.
Firstly you ignored half of edge's comment. Why DON'T we see fragments eroded from the upper strata ? And how does the debris from the lower strata become embedded in the upper strata - and how do they become rounded ? Conventional geology explains all these things, easily.
quote:
Well I have to refer you to the cross section where you can see that all the layers tilted on the north are the same layers that have remained flat on the south, only the north block has dropped thousands of feet from the level of the south side. The Claron layer is straight on both sides, apparently resisting the tilting of the others. Do you have a scenario by which the same layer would have deposited both on the lower flat and the upper which is thousands of feet higher?
You're being asked to explain why the Claron formation can't have been laid after the tilting (and it seems clear to me that it was).
quote:
All the activity, all the disruptions, occurred after all the strata were in place, that's the main observation.
It's not an observation, it's an interpretation. To my eye the Claron formation was clearly laid after the tilting at Hurricane fault. Nothing else makes sense.
Edited by PaulK, : Correct a tag

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1845 by Faith, posted 02-04-2014 3:31 PM Faith has not replied

  
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