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Author Topic:   Importance of Original Sin
Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 931 of 1198 (716565)
01-19-2014 8:58 AM
Reply to: Message 930 by ringo
01-17-2014 11:06 AM


Re: after the Great Rising and Blessing in Gen 2&3
Dawn Bertot writes:
You have very real head knowledge NOW, that you could save peoples lives in other countries, without fear of death, why dont you go do this now?
Ringo writes
What makes you think I don't?
Whoa. You do realize that if what you have claimed you DO, you do NOT, this makes your original, boast like small potatoes. Since I am about 98%, sure you do NOT what you indicate, that makes your statement more vulgar.
Ill leave you with your conscince on that one, that should be bad enough company
But your point is wrong, as demonstrated. People (soldiers, police officers, firefighters, etc.) do risk their lives - many of them not believing in a woo-woo "afterlife" - for causes which they consider worthwhile. An individual person might not know what he/she "would" do in advance but humans collectively do behave as they do.
Brief but pointless
Sez you. The story doesn't say why he wanted to avoid death. He may have been as unsure of the resurrection as anybody else.
Since he predicted his death to the Apostles many times and the manner in which he would die, I doubt your statement conforms to scripture
"Destroy this temple and I will raise it up in three days"
He told (predicted) to the disciples he would be delivered to the chief priest and elder, to suffer at thier hands and die
He wanted to avoid death because while God, he was fully human. He had feelings, relationships, in short a life he loved like anyone else.
He told John. "Son behold your Mother, Mother behold your son"
So it doent take a Rocket Scientist to figure out why he didnt want to suffer and die
Think about the 30 some years before the ministry started, the fun, the relationships, the pain the sorrow, the life he built, only to be snuffed out because of you and me
Read more carefully. I have said throughout that people "would" willingly risk their lives for others, with or without the possibility of resurrection. And I am saying that people "can" do even more than they think they "would" do.
The will to try precedes the ability to do but the ability to do surpasses the will.
While your last line here may appear eloquent, even it is not true, if we knew exacally how we would suffer
But none of this has anything to do with YOUR original boast, that you yourself would die a thousand painful, tourtuous deaths, if it meant saving others and the possibility of resurrection
Now I believe you have purgured yourself, by making a further claim that you presently, actually do a form of this , when you actually do not
How could you make such an original claim to begin with? Your original boasts point, was to try and nullify the sacrifice of Christ. It still hasnt had any affect in that direction
Dawn Bertot
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 930 by ringo, posted 01-17-2014 11:06 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 932 by ringo, posted 01-19-2014 1:16 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 932 of 1198 (716592)
01-19-2014 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 931 by Dawn Bertot
01-19-2014 8:58 AM


Re: after the Great Rising and Blessing in Gen 2&3
Dawn Bertot writes:
"Destroy this temple and I will raise it up in three days"
Jesus was standing in the temple when he said that. He was talking about the temple, not his own death. (Note that when the temple was destroyed some time later, he did not raise it up in three days.)
dawn bertot writes:
But none of this has anything to do with YOUR original boast, that you yourself would die a thousand painful, tourtuous deaths, if it meant saving others and the possibility of resurrection
It isn't a boast; it's a simple statement of reality. The fact is that many people do die for others, and without the promise of immediate resurrection.
Dawn Bertot writes:
Your original boasts point, was to try and nullify the sacrifice of Christ.
Indeed it was. If there is no cost, there is no sacrifice.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 931 by Dawn Bertot, posted 01-19-2014 8:58 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 933 of 1198 (717548)
01-28-2014 6:30 PM
Reply to: Message 802 by jar
12-26-2013 6:51 PM


Re: jar (note, all lower case) position
jar writes:
Again Phat, it's not what I assert it is what the story actually says, what is written.
They ought to be a clue that Genesis 2&3 are not about creation or God and sure as hell not about Jesus or Satan.
The serpent is ... a serpent; another plot device for the "Just So" story.
It's about people, about why we fear snakes, why we have to farm and not just hunt and gather like the other animals, why we wear clothes unlike any other critters, why we build a moral society, why childbirth seemed more painful for humans than for other animals and most importantly, why women must be subject to the men.
The same can be said about Genesis 1; it's not about creation, it's about why there is a seven day week and a Sabbath.
The issue is why do so many Christians seem unable to actually read what is written and instead seem to believe what the Nees and Lees and all the other snake oil salesmen claim the stories mean?
Perhaps the gift of the knowledge of good and evil was the day we became fully human. Perhaps death is just a part of life, and that we basically left the nest that day. If so, your responsibility argument makes more sense...though I still dont like the idea of having to do everything on my own with no help from home.
They may not have become more like God after that episode but they may have become more like Jesus....which is probably not what the serpent intended. It makes sense though if the serpent was but a tool. If the trinitarian doctrine is true, Jesus existed before Lucifer fell out of favor and became satan. Thus there was a solution even before there was a problem.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 802 by jar, posted 12-26-2013 6:51 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 934 by jar, posted 01-28-2014 6:43 PM Phat has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 934 of 1198 (717549)
01-28-2014 6:43 PM
Reply to: Message 933 by Phat
01-28-2014 6:30 PM


Re: jar (note, all lower case) position
Where in the Bible does Lucifer fall out of favor and become satan?
The story says that they did become more like God after that episode, having to struggle with complicated question of right and wrong even where there is no right or wrong answer.
What does some Trinitarian doctrine have to do with Satan or Lucifer?
What does any of that have to do with the topic?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 933 by Phat, posted 01-28-2014 6:30 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 935 by Phat, posted 02-04-2014 1:23 AM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 935 of 1198 (718054)
02-04-2014 1:23 AM
Reply to: Message 934 by jar
01-28-2014 6:43 PM


Re: jar (note, all lower case) position
Where in the Bible does Lucifer fall out of favor and become satan?
The only support that is used is the King of Tyre scripture....most of this dogma is from other sources, I believe.
The story says that they did become more like God after that episode, having to struggle with complicated question of right and wrong even where there is no right or wrong answer.
How would we know if they became more like God? Seems to me that God is a bit more complicated than just judging cloudy answers. All that happened is that they had to go to work and wear clothes.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 934 by jar, posted 01-28-2014 6:43 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 936 by jar, posted 02-04-2014 8:47 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 937 by ringo, posted 02-04-2014 11:04 AM Phat has replied
 Message 940 by Phat, posted 02-04-2014 11:28 AM Phat has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 936 of 1198 (718076)
02-04-2014 8:47 AM
Reply to: Message 935 by Phat
02-04-2014 1:23 AM


Re: jar (note, all lower case) position
But the King of Tyre passage is talking about the King of Tyre.
Phat writes:
How would we know if they became more like God?
Well, we might read what the story actually says. That could work.
Phat writes:
All that happened is that they had to go to work and wear clothes.
Well, that's not what the story says, is it?
But you seem to want to willfully ignore what the stories actually say.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 935 by Phat, posted 02-04-2014 1:23 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 937 of 1198 (718089)
02-04-2014 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 935 by Phat
02-04-2014 1:23 AM


Re: jar (note, all lower case) position
Phat writes:
How would we know if they became more like God?
How many freaking times do you people have to have it quoted to you?
quote:
Genesis 3:22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:
God said it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 935 by Phat, posted 02-04-2014 1:23 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 938 by Phat, posted 02-04-2014 11:11 AM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 938 of 1198 (718090)
02-04-2014 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 937 by ringo
02-04-2014 11:04 AM


Re: jar (note, all lower case) position
OK so who is "us"? I thought there was only One God....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 937 by ringo, posted 02-04-2014 11:04 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 939 by ringo, posted 02-04-2014 11:26 AM Phat has replied
 Message 943 by Modulous, posted 02-04-2014 12:16 PM Phat has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 939 of 1198 (718093)
02-04-2014 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 938 by Phat
02-04-2014 11:11 AM


Re: jar (note, all lower case) position
Phat writes:
OK so who is "us"? I thought there was only One God....
You tell me. You're the one who's disputing what the Bible says.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 938 by Phat, posted 02-04-2014 11:11 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 941 by Phat, posted 02-04-2014 11:32 AM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 940 of 1198 (718095)
02-04-2014 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 935 by Phat
02-04-2014 1:23 AM


Re: jar (note, all lower case) position
OK im now reading the story---since I wanted to find support for your assertion that A & E struggled with the complicated question of right and wrong even where there is no right or wrong answer.
*reads*
This God character seems like a bit of a tyrant. He says that Eve is gonna hurt when having children....(which as we know happens) thus He is not blessing anybody much with anything. Adam has to work hard...Eve has to bear offspring and hurt....and of course the serpent has to crawl around like a snake. I realize that these are what you call Just So stories...but they hardly impress me.
*reads*
Cain is told to cheer up and thus be accepted...and that he has a responsibility to master sin. More hard work. More tough responsibility. So far the book is not encouraging me....
*reads*
then it looks as if another human explanation...the judgement of murder...is just so explained.
Im tellin ya....if the whole book is simply about responsibility and hard work, im disappointed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 935 by Phat, posted 02-04-2014 1:23 AM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 941 of 1198 (718096)
02-04-2014 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 939 by ringo
02-04-2014 11:26 AM


Where Is The Story Of God & I?
The book is not helping me. Im trying to figure out why you seem to think that --God or not---handing out spare change results in a blessed life. Heck, let them go toil the earth for awhile.
Where is a just-so story that promises me anything besides a sore back?
Add by edit:
quote:
Gen 4:25-26
25 Adam lay with his wife again, and she gave birth to a son and named him Seth, saying, "God has granted me another child in place of Abel, since Cain killed him." 26 Seth also had a son, and he named him Enosh.
At that time men began to call on the name of the LORD.
Finally! They need something from God! Im right there with them!
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 939 by ringo, posted 02-04-2014 11:26 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 942 by ringo, posted 02-04-2014 11:42 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 942 of 1198 (718098)
02-04-2014 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 941 by Phat
02-04-2014 11:32 AM


Re: Where Is The Story Of God & I?
Phat writes:
Where is a just-so story that promises me anything besides a sore back?
The point of a Just So story is to tell you why you have a sore back, not to promise you sunshine and lollipops.
Phat writes:
Im trying to figure out why you seem to think that --God or not---handing out spare change results in a blessed life. Heck, let them go toil the earth for awhile.
Somebody who needs spare change might already be toiling the earth harder than you. Our needs don't always exactly match our abilities, which is why I'm a socialist. (From each according to his ability, to each according to his need.)
Handling out spare change certainly blesses my life. I'd rather be making a contribution to the collective good than just grasping for my own greed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 941 by Phat, posted 02-04-2014 11:32 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 943 of 1198 (718105)
02-04-2014 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 938 by Phat
02-04-2014 11:11 AM


Re: jar (note, all lower case) position
OK so who is "us"? I thought there was only One God....
elohiym, presumably.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 938 by Phat, posted 02-04-2014 11:11 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 944 by Phat, posted 02-04-2014 4:12 PM Modulous has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 944 of 1198 (718122)
02-04-2014 4:12 PM
Reply to: Message 943 by Modulous
02-04-2014 12:16 PM


Re: jar (note, all lower case) position
(plural)
rulers, judges
divine ones
angels
gods
OK. we know that a man can never be a god and that if we believe in monotheiosm there is only one of them anyway.
sounds more like a judge with somewhat of a divine awareness.
"You shall be judges of good and evil."
Which gets back to jars old argument that humans are charged to be responsible. Arrrrrgh
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 943 by Modulous, posted 02-04-2014 12:16 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 945 by Modulous, posted 02-04-2014 4:52 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 948 by arachnophilia, posted 02-07-2014 8:11 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 945 of 1198 (718124)
02-04-2014 4:52 PM
Reply to: Message 944 by Phat
02-04-2014 4:12 PM


elohiym r us
It should be noted that it overwhelmingly refers to god/s.
God (2,346x), god (244x), judge (5x), GOD (1x), goddess (2x), great (2x), mighty (2x), angels (1x), exceeding (1x), God-ward (with H4136) (1x), godly (1x).
And Genesis 3:5 is normally translated:
quote:
For God (elohiym) doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods (elohiym), knowing good and evil.
Since there were no human Judges, it must refer to celestial beings/divine ones even if we don't suppose its true godhood. And its only 'as' gods, not actually gods. It's just that the only things that know good and evil at this point in the story are the divine beings (god, possibly his wife and the angels (including Satan)).
Edited by Modulous, : title

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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