Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 13/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Why the Flood Never Happened
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 706 of 1896 (714732)
12-26-2013 9:46 PM
Reply to: Message 700 by roxrkool
12-26-2013 9:28 PM


Re: HBD questions part 3 the timing
Pollux was making joke out of it -- it is certainly a curiosity this mind that is so closed.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 700 by roxrkool, posted 12-26-2013 9:28 PM roxrkool has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 707 by Pollux, posted 12-27-2013 12:19 AM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
Pollux
Member
Posts: 303
Joined: 11-13-2011


Message 707 of 1896 (714740)
12-27-2013 12:19 AM
Reply to: Message 706 by RAZD
12-26-2013 9:46 PM


Re: HBD questions part 3 the timing
RAZD got my drift. I don't disagree with the intent of roxrcool's statement.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 706 by RAZD, posted 12-26-2013 9:46 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


(1)
Message 708 of 1896 (714747)
12-27-2013 7:30 AM
Reply to: Message 691 by Faith
12-26-2013 5:51 PM


Re: Continental drift
No, Jon, I calculated it as the STARTING speed, 11 feet per day is the average speed, which would have been attained around 100 BC.
You're right, sorry.
I'm not dealing with all the other plates, just the Atlantic ridge, the others may be slower or faster.
Yup, ignoring the physical impossibilities as usual. A plate boundary went right under Abraham's hut.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 691 by Faith, posted 12-26-2013 5:51 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 710 by Faith, posted 12-27-2013 8:24 AM JonF has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(2)
Message 709 of 1896 (714748)
12-27-2013 8:21 AM
Reply to: Message 701 by Faith
12-26-2013 9:29 PM


Re: Reasons to believe the Flood Happened = ignoring reality
IF what I said is true, about the strata being all in place before any major disturbances occurred to them ...
Faith, if you define major disturbances as anything that didn't occur but includes other events that you imagine should have occurred, like major cataclysms and catastrophic events, then you don't see any because all the disturbances that did occur do not fit your definition. This is dishonest and invalid logic.
What you should be concerned about are ANY disturbances no matter how minor, because ANY disturbance of the top surface of ANY layer shows that they were not laid down in one process but that there was a time interval between layers.
Fossils - Grand Canyon National Park (U.S. National Park Service)
quote:
Grand Canyon has so much more than pretty scenery. It contains an amazing diversity of rock formations with an abundance of fossils hidden within. The sedimentary rocks exposed throughout the canyon are rich with marine fossils such as crinoids, brachiopods, and sponges with several layers containing terrestrial fossils such as leaf and dragonfly wing impressions, and footprints of scorpions, centipedes, and reptiles. Ancient fossils preserved in the rock layers range from algal mats and microfossils from Precambrian Time 1,200 million to 740 million years ago to a multitude of body and trace fossils from the Paleozoic Era 525-270 million years ago.
The facts remain that some layers were laid down in a terrestrial (dry land) environment and some layers were laid down in a watery (lake or ocean bottom) environment.
The fossils confirm this. Therefore the layers were not laid down in one event.
The facts remain that 'mammary' type speleothems formed underwater in caves that eroded from the sides of the canyon while it was being carved. Each speleothem collected uranium from the water during their formation years.
No two speleothems have the same age, therefore the canyon was not cut all in one event.
Then there are cave fossils (from the same source):
quote:
... Pleistocene and Holocene remains have been unearthed within many of these caves, including 11,000 year old sloth bones, dung and hair, ...

This is an animal that is now extinct but was alive after the cave formed -- hence the dung in the cave -- and the cave formed after the canyon was cut.
... all the specifics you are talking about have to be irrelevant.
That is the lie you keep telling yourself to avoid having to deal with all the evidence that falsifies your position. This is the way you resolve your cognitive dissonance, a fairly simple solution for you -- as long as no evidence is allowed to be significant you can continue to believe your delusional fantasy.
The Flood was NOT just any flood.
To take a leaf from Dr A's book the word "just" is superfluous ...
Enjoy
Edited by RAZD, : sloth/fossils

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 701 by Faith, posted 12-26-2013 9:29 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 711 by Faith, posted 12-27-2013 8:27 AM RAZD has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 710 of 1896 (714749)
12-27-2013 8:24 AM
Reply to: Message 708 by JonF
12-27-2013 7:30 AM


Re: Continental drift
The Arabian plate clearly doesn't move much.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 708 by JonF, posted 12-27-2013 7:30 AM JonF has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 714 by JonF, posted 12-27-2013 8:53 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 711 of 1896 (714750)
12-27-2013 8:27 AM
Reply to: Message 709 by RAZD
12-27-2013 8:21 AM


Re: Reasons to believe the Flood Happened = ignoring reality
Faith, if you define major disturbances as anything that didn't occur but includes other events that you imagine should have occurred, like major cataclysms and catastrophic events, then you don't see any because all the disturbances that did occur do not fit your definition. This is dishonest and invalid logic.
The disturbances I have in mind are clearly visible on the cross sections as clearly occurering after all the strata were in place with the exception of the Great Unconformity, and I've identified them dozens of times on this thread. I'm not going to repeat them for somebody who accuses me of being dishonest, go find them yourself.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 709 by RAZD, posted 12-27-2013 8:21 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 712 by RAZD, posted 12-27-2013 8:40 AM Faith has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 712 of 1896 (714751)
12-27-2013 8:40 AM
Reply to: Message 711 by Faith
12-27-2013 8:27 AM


Re: Reasons to believe the Flood Happened = ignoring reality
The disturbances I have in mind are clearly visible on the cross sections as clearly occurering after all the strata were in place with the exception of the Great Unconformity, and I've identified them dozens of times on this thread. I'm not going to repeat them for somebody who accuses me of being dishonest, go find them yourself.
Thank you for confirming what I said before. Curiously I am not asking you to repeat yourself, but rather for you to consider that you are wrong. The logic is dishonest and invalid.
IF what I said is true, about the strata being all in place before any major disturbances occurred to them ...
It isn't true.
Because, if you define major disturbances as anything that didn't occur but includes other events that you just imagine should have occurred, like major cataclysms and catastrophic events, then you don't see any because all the disturbances that did occur do not fit your definition.
This is dishonest and invalid logic.
What you should be concerned about are ANY disturbances no matter how minor, because ANY disturbance of the top surface of ANY layer shows that they were not laid down in one process but that there was a time interval between layers.
Fossils - Grand Canyon National Park (U.S. National Park Service)
quote:
Grand Canyon has so much more than pretty scenery. It contains an amazing diversity of rock formations with an abundance of fossils hidden within. The sedimentary rocks exposed throughout the canyon are rich with marine fossils such as crinoids, brachiopods, and sponges with several layers containing terrestrial fossils such as leaf and dragonfly wing impressions, and footprints of scorpions, centipedes, and reptiles. Ancient fossils preserved in the rock layers range from algal mats and microfossils from Precambrian Time 1,200 million to 740 million years ago to a multitude of body and trace fossils from the Paleozoic Era 525-270 million years ago.
The facts remain that some layers were laid down in a terrestrial (dry land) environment and some layers were laid down in a watery (lake or ocean bottom) environment.
The fossils confirm this. Therefore the layers were not laid down in one event.
The facts remain that 'mammary' type speleothems formed underwater in caves that eroded from the sides of the canyon while it was being carved. Each speleothem collected uranium from the water during their formation years.
No two speleothems have the same age, therefore the canyon was not cut all in one event.
Then there are cave fossils (from the same source):
quote:
... Pleistocene and Holocene remains have been unearthed within many of these caves, including 11,000 year old sloth bones, dung and hair, ...

This is an animal that is now extinct but was alive after the cave formed -- hence the dung in the cave -- and the cave formed after the canyon was cut.
... all the specifics you are talking about have to be irrelevant.
There is no valid reason for any evidence to be irrelevant.
So that is a lie you keep telling yourself to avoid having to deal with all the evidence that falsifies your position. This is the way you resolve your cognitive dissonance, a fairly simple solution for you -- as long as no evidence is allowed to be significant you can continue to believe your delusional fantasy.
The Flood was NOT just any flood.
To take a leaf from Dr A's book the word "just" is superfluous ...
Enjoy
Edited by RAZD, : No reason given.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 711 by Faith, posted 12-27-2013 8:27 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 713 by Faith, posted 12-27-2013 8:46 AM RAZD has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 713 of 1896 (714754)
12-27-2013 8:46 AM
Reply to: Message 712 by RAZD
12-27-2013 8:40 AM


Re: Reasons to believe the Flood Happened = ignoring reality
It IS true. And by the way most of Dr. A's pictures which were supposed to disprove it actually prove it: They show that the disturbances occurred after the strata were in place. Including the karst in the redwall. It's clear enough on the picture that the hole occurred after the strata were in place. And besides karsts DO form underground, though he claimed otherwise. One of the pictures is undecipherable -- one of the redwall -- so I have no idea wha5t it's intended to prove, and the one of the Great Unconformity is irrelevant since I've conceded that point for now.
I believe I've proved this on this thread, over and over and over again. You're the one being dishonest.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 712 by RAZD, posted 12-27-2013 8:40 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 716 by RAZD, posted 12-27-2013 9:03 AM Faith has replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


(1)
Message 714 of 1896 (714757)
12-27-2013 8:53 AM
Reply to: Message 710 by Faith
12-27-2013 8:24 AM


Re: Continental drift
The Arabian plate clearly doesn't move much.
Prove it. The plates in my picture are labeled with their velocities today.There's been lots of major earthquakes there within recorded history.
From Geological Survey of Iran:
quote:
The about 35 mm/yr convergence between the Eurasian and Arabian plates accommodates by reverse and strike-slip faults within Iranian plateau, with relatively low slip rates in a zone 1000 km across. A rich historical and archeological record in Iran spans several thousand years, long enough to establish recurrence intervals of 1000 to 5000 yr on individual fault segments. Study of earthquakes in historical literature, together with information obtained from other sources can increase our understanding of seismic hazard in the country. "Destruction occurred within a radius of 12 farsangs [~72 km] from Tabriz city; very long fissures developed in most mountains, the fissures extended for approximately 7 farsangs [~42 km] along the road to Shebli [located along the North Tabriz active fault line]" (Zonuzi, 1801 describing the 1780.01.08 Tabriz earthquake of Io~ IX +, Ms ~7.4 +, after Berberian M. & Yeats R. S. 1999).
A 12th century monument near Ghazvin damaged by Avaj earthquake in 2002 (photographed by F.Ansari 2003)
From Top 10 Major Disasters Of The World:
quote:
1138 — Aleppo Earthquake
Aleppo is situated northern portion of the Dead Sea and it separates the African plate from the Arabian Plate. The series of the earthquakes took place from October 1138 to the month of the June 1139. The area that was the hit the most was Harim. The earthquake caused deaths of around 230,000 people.
From Giant Tectonic Crack in Africa(Ethiopia) Will Become New Ocean
quote:
The African and Arabian plates meet in the remote Afar desert of Northern Ethiopia and have been spreading apart in a rifting process at a speed of less than 1 inch per year for the past 30 million years. This rifting formed the 186-mile Afar depression and the Red Sea. The thinking is that the Red Sea will eventually pour into the new sea in a million years or so. The new body of water would connect to the Red Sea and the Gulf of Aden, an arm of the Arabian Sea between Yemen on the Arabian Peninsula and Somalia in eastern Africa.
And that's just ten minutes of research.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 710 by Faith, posted 12-27-2013 8:24 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 715 by Faith, posted 12-27-2013 8:59 AM JonF has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 715 of 1896 (714758)
12-27-2013 8:59 AM
Reply to: Message 714 by JonF
12-27-2013 8:53 AM


Re: Continental drift
On all the pictures it is clear they don't have ROOM to move much, neither now nor in Abraham's time, so if they were moving in his time as much as they are moving now, fine, so he was used to the same amount of earthquakes. Big deal..

This message is a reply to:
 Message 714 by JonF, posted 12-27-2013 8:53 AM JonF has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 718 by RAZD, posted 12-27-2013 9:16 AM Faith has replied
 Message 721 by JonF, posted 12-27-2013 11:01 AM Faith has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(2)
Message 716 of 1896 (714759)
12-27-2013 9:03 AM
Reply to: Message 713 by Faith
12-27-2013 8:46 AM


Re: Reasons to believe the Flood Happened = ignoring reality
It IS true. ...
So you keep telling yourself. Unfortunately undereducated opinion is not of any scientific value nor has it been able to alter reality in any way, shape or form.
I believe I've proved this on this thread, over and over and over again. You're the one being dishonest.
Curiously I am not the one ignoring any and all evidence that invalidates my position.
I'll keep adding to the list of evidence that invalidates a WW Noachin flood in Message 692 as they come up.
Enjoy
Edited by RAZD, : ..
Edited by RAZD, : .

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 713 by Faith, posted 12-27-2013 8:46 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 717 by Faith, posted 12-27-2013 9:15 AM RAZD has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 717 of 1896 (714762)
12-27-2013 9:15 AM
Reply to: Message 716 by RAZD
12-27-2013 9:03 AM


Re: Reasons to believe the Flood Happened = ignoring reality
It is true that all the large scale disturbances occurred to the strata only after they wree all laid down, it's a fact observable on pictures and in those cross sections. With the exception of the Great Unconformity. Period. Magma penetrated through the whole stack from bottom to top; fajult lines divide the entire stack from bottom to top; strata are depicted as parallel for hundreds of miles, not disturbed by tectonic tilting until all were in place, THEN you get the canyons, the stairs, the hoodoos, the tilting and so on and not before. And that makes all the little proofs you like so much irrelevant. Of course you CAN claim, if you want, that the strata were completely unaffected by those forces for hundreds of millions of yaers. Then your little proofs will work.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 716 by RAZD, posted 12-27-2013 9:03 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 724 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-27-2013 12:07 PM Faith has replied
 Message 725 by RAZD, posted 12-27-2013 1:29 PM Faith has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 718 of 1896 (714763)
12-27-2013 9:16 AM
Reply to: Message 715 by Faith
12-27-2013 8:59 AM


Re: Continental drift
On all the pictures it is clear they don't have ROOM to move much, ...
um ... because they are colliding? Of course you will try to ignore this because this interferes with your notion of fast movement of plates separating at great speeds ...
Standing on any plate you could claim it was not moving, just all the others ...
Sadly this does not account for the ones bumping into the plate and causing local earthquakes. '
... so if they were moving in his time as much as they are moving now, fine, so he was used to the same amount of earthquakes. Big deal..
There have obviously been a number of earthquakes in recorded history, what is absent is any record of daily earthquakes ...
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 715 by Faith, posted 12-27-2013 8:59 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 719 by Faith, posted 12-27-2013 9:19 AM RAZD has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 719 of 1896 (714764)
12-27-2013 9:19 AM
Reply to: Message 718 by RAZD
12-27-2013 9:16 AM


Re: Continental drift
Good grief, RAZD, I ONLY calculated the Atlantic ridge speed, I did NOT address the other plates which could be moving faster or slower. I'm sorry, I know you hate creationism so you're going to do anything you can even if dishonest and unfair to try to discredit it. Too bad you're wrong.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 718 by RAZD, posted 12-27-2013 9:16 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 720 by RAZD, posted 12-27-2013 9:49 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 722 by JonF, posted 12-27-2013 11:05 AM Faith has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(2)
Message 720 of 1896 (714765)
12-27-2013 9:49 AM
Reply to: Message 719 by Faith
12-27-2013 9:19 AM


Re: Continental drift
... , I did NOT address the other plates which could be moving faster or slower. ...
So you haven't made up stuff for all the other plates ...
... , I know you hate creationism ...
What I dislike Faith is dishonesty, equivocating and make-believe excuses. What I dislike is teaching kids garbage with the pretense of knowledge and what I dislike is misrepresenting facts.
... Too bad you're wrong.
Says the arrogant lady that doesn't recognize wrong concepts when she sees them.
Enjoy.
Edited by RAZD, : ..
Edited by RAZD, : ..

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 719 by Faith, posted 12-27-2013 9:19 AM Faith has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024