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Author Topic:   Why the Flood Never Happened
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(2)
Message 271 of 1896 (713833)
12-16-2013 8:59 PM


Another closely related subject for Faith to advocate
...scientific creationism is little different from the flat earth movement. Both are based on the same kind of scientific evidence and on a more or less literal interpretation of the Bible. In fact, scientific creationism, geocentrism, and flat-earthism are respectively the liberal, moderate and conservative branches of a tree that has often been called Bible-Science. The intense hostility expressed by the scientific creationists towards the flat-earthers, does not extend to the geocentrists, who hover on the edge of respectability among scientific creationists. Indeed, though the Bible is, from Genesis to Revelation, a flat-earth book, the geocentrists have combined forces with liberal creationists to cast the flat-earthers into outer darkness.
Despite their internecine warfare, Bible-Scientists are in broad agreement on a number of issues. They agree on the usefulness of the Bible as a scientific text, the weakness of mere theories, the duplicity of conventional scientists, and the impossibility of reconciling conventional science with the Bible. The creation and flat-earth movements have similar foundations and histories, and both have used similar strategies to propagate their beliefs. Indeed, both believe they are battling the same behind-the-scenes opponent.
Perhaps some day the scientific creationists will make peace with the flat-earthers. While they disagree on details, they claim to be fighting the same enemy.
I believe the real source of Modern Astronomy to have been SATAN, wrote flat-earther David Wardlaw Scott. From his first temptation of Eve in the Garden of Eden until now, his great object has been to throw discredit on the Truth of God... John Hampden agreed, calling the spherical theory that Satanic device of a round and revolving globe, which sets Scripture, reason, and facts at defiance.
Henry M. Morris, director of the Institute for Creation Research, came to precisely the same conclusion about evolution: Behind both groups of evolutionists [theistic and non-theistic] one can discern the malignant influence of ‘that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world’ (Revelation 12:9). As we have seen, it must have been essentially the deception of evolution which prompted Satan himself to rebel against God, and it was essentially the same great lie with which he deceived Eve, and with which he has continued to ‘deceive the whole world.’
According to Charles Johnson, president of the Flat Earth Society, both deceptions will soon be over. He claims that the U.S. government -- perhaps the present administration -- will one day officially proclaim that the earth is flat. That day will also mark the downfall of evolution.
From "Scientific Creationism, Geocentricity, and the Flat Earth," by Robert J. Schadewald (1981).
http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/crea-fe.htm
Perhaps Faith would like to have this subject in a new thread?

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(2)
Message 272 of 1896 (713835)
12-16-2013 9:01 PM
Reply to: Message 263 by Faith
12-16-2013 8:18 PM


Re: Two questions for the Old Earthers
I'm sure we've explained this to you, but let's go through it again. First there was a non-magical process of deposition, such as we can see happening today. Then there was a non-magical process of uplift, such as we can see happening today, caused by the sort of non-magical tectonic processes that we can see happening today. Then there was a non-magical process of erosion such as we can see happening today. You may find this hard to grasp, since it involves real things that actually happen rather than an invisible genocidal wizard doing magic; but if you think about it for a bit I hope you'll admit that things can happen even if they aren't impossible. In fact, it's quite common.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by Faith, posted 12-16-2013 8:18 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 278 by Faith, posted 12-17-2013 2:57 AM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 273 of 1896 (713836)
12-16-2013 9:25 PM
Reply to: Message 243 by Faith
12-16-2013 2:23 PM


Re: Why is the Old Earth interpretation impossible?
Since you don't even try to reproduce any of my arguments but just call them "bad" proves you haven't a clue what I've said.
Maybe he figured that you'd know what your arguments were without him telling you. I reckon there's at least an even chance.

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 Message 243 by Faith, posted 12-16-2013 2:23 PM Faith has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(2)
Message 274 of 1896 (713837)
12-16-2013 9:28 PM
Reply to: Message 249 by Faith
12-16-2013 3:09 PM


Re: Why is the Old Earth interpretation impossible?
Faith writes:
The Supergroup is actually nine layers but I thought it was more and it doesn't really matter anyway. But this is from Wikipedia:
The ...Grand Canon Supergroup of sedimentary units is composed of nine varied geologic formations... The oldest section of the supergroup is the Unkar Group
We were looking at this diagram that shows 4 major layers in the supergroup:
It can be divided into sublayers, but they aren't shown in the diagram. The sublayers of the overlying strata aren't shown in the diagram either.
Look at the contact line between the Tapeats and the Supergroup: sure looks to me like the Tapeats was affected or the line would be straight.
The sedimentary layers of the supergroup were at one time just the bottommost layers of a deep stack of layers. Stretching of the continent split these layers up into blocks, which then tilted to fill in the space created by the stretching. Periods of uplift and erosion wore these tilted layers down to nubs just a few layers thick. The exposed tilted edges of the layers eroded very unevenly and presented a rugged landscape. We see the bottommost remains of two of these blocks as supergroup strata beneath the Grand Canyon in this diagram:
The region then subsided beneath the waves of a shallow sea and sedimentation began anew, filling in the lowest areas first to form the Tapeats.
Yes, the weight of two miles of strata above would be the resistance that happened to stop at the Tapeats
Layers tilting over while still buried isn't possible because no mechanism could do this, the evidence doesn't indicate it happened, and it requires thousands of cubic miles of sedimentary rock to just disappear.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by Faith, posted 12-16-2013 3:09 PM Faith has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(2)
Message 275 of 1896 (713839)
12-16-2013 10:08 PM


Snark hidden
{This should have never been posted in this topic. - Adminnemooseus}
Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Hidden - Nothing but snark.

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 276 of 1896 (713841)
12-17-2013 2:50 AM
Reply to: Message 268 by RAZD
12-16-2013 8:40 PM


Re: Two questions for the Old Earthers
1) According to you all, what caused the uplift of the GC?
Orogenic uplift
Orogenic uplift is the result of tectonic-plate collisions and results in mountain ranges or a more modest uplift over a large region.
Thank you but I'm afraid I didn't get my second question worded as I had intended.
The question I meant to ask was:
2) What caused the TILTING of the Supergroup?
Thanks.
(side thought: quote says Supergroup were never subjected to metamorphism, which I'd also noticed, but isn't the Shinumo Quartzite layer an exception to that?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 268 by RAZD, posted 12-16-2013 8:40 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 279 by RAZD, posted 12-17-2013 3:33 AM Faith has replied
 Message 283 by Percy, posted 12-17-2013 7:28 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 277 of 1896 (713842)
12-17-2013 2:52 AM
Reply to: Message 266 by New Cat's Eye
12-16-2013 8:34 PM


Re: Two questions for the Old Earthers
1) According to you all, what caused the uplift of the GC?
In short: Plate tectonics.
Thank you.
But I didn't get my second question worded as I had intended. I meant to ask:
2) What was the cause of the TILTING of the Supergroup?
Would you please answer this one?
Thanks.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 278 of 1896 (713843)
12-17-2013 2:57 AM
Reply to: Message 272 by Dr Adequate
12-16-2013 9:01 PM


Re: Two questions for the Old Earthers
Then there was a non-magical process of uplift, such as we can see happening today, caused by the sort of non-magical tectonic processes that we can see happening today.
I'm not clear which question you are answering. The one about the uplift of the canyon or the one about the supergroup or both in one? Sorry to say I didn't get the one about the Supergroup asked as I had intended.
To get a clearer answer, would you answer again?
1) What caused the uplift to the Grand Canyon area?
2) What caused the TILTING of the Supergroup?
Thank you.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 272 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-16-2013 9:01 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 294 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-17-2013 10:57 AM Faith has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 279 of 1896 (713845)
12-17-2013 3:33 AM
Reply to: Message 276 by Faith
12-17-2013 2:50 AM


Re: Two questions for the Old Earthers
2) What caused the TILTING of the Supergroup?
Earthquakes.
... but isn't the Shinumo Quartzite layer an exception to that?
Shinumo Quartzite - Wikipedia
quote:
The Shinumo Quartzite also known as the Shinumo Sandstone, is a Mesoproterozoic rock formation, which outcrops in the eastern Grand Canyon, Coconino County, Arizona. The Shinumo Quartzite consists of a series of massive, cliff-forming sandstones and sedimentary quartzites. ...
The Shinumo Quartzite is a middle member of the Unkar Group. The Unkar Group is about 1,600 to 2,200 m (5,200 ft to 7,200 ft) thick and composed of, in ascending order, the Bass Formation, Hakatai Shale, Shinumo Quartzite, Dox Formation, and Cardenas Basalt. The Unkar Group consists of a sequence of sedimentary rocks that accumulated in a variety of environments ranging from fluvial to shallow-marine. Overall, the strata within it are conformable with the exception of a significant disconformity between the Hatakai Shale and Shinumo Quartzite. ...
The Shinumo Quartzite exhibits a variety of sedimentary structures. The sandstones of the lower and lower middle members exhibit centimeter- to meter-scale planar tabular cross-stratification and trough cross-beds. These cross beds record north-directed paleocurrents along with subordinate bidirectional paleocurrents. The upper middle member exhibits abundant cross beds, clay galls, and mudcracks. The sandstones of the upper member exhibit trough cross-beds, suggesting a more northerly transport direction. The sandstone and quartzite beds of the upper member exhibit an abundance of complexly contorted, gnarly bedded, fluid expulsion structures and dramatic convolute bedding. The beds that exhibit these soft-sediment deformation structures are meters- to tens-of-meters thick. They are cited as evidence for frequent earthquake activity and fluid migration during the deposition of the Shinumo Quartzite. These deformed beds can be seen at river level in the vicinity of Nevilles Rapid, (List of Colorado River rapids), at river mile 75.[2][5][6]
Between the three-member Tonto Group (above) and the Shinumo Quartzite, and the rest of the folded and faulted Unkar Group, is a prominent angular unconformity, which is part of the Great Unconformity. Though this surface is typically a plane, differential erosion of the tilted strata of the Unkar Group left resistant beds of the Cardenas Basalt and Shinumo Quartzite as ancient hills, called monadnocks, that are up to 240 m (800 ft) high. Thin drapes of Tapeats Sandstone of the Tonto Group now cover most of these ancient monadnocks. However, a few of these monadnocks protrude up into the Bright Angel Shale (Isis Temple example). These monadnocks served locally as sources of coarse-grained sediments that accumulated during the marine transgression to form the Tonto Group.[2][9]
Enjoy

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 276 by Faith, posted 12-17-2013 2:50 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 280 by Faith, posted 12-17-2013 5:04 AM RAZD has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 280 of 1896 (713846)
12-17-2013 5:04 AM
Reply to: Message 279 by RAZD
12-17-2013 3:33 AM


Re: Two questions for the Old Earthers
2) What caused the TILTING of the Supergroup?
Earthquakes.
Thank you. This raises new questions:
a) Did the earthquakes occur before or after the uplifting of the canyon area as a whole?
And b) Do you have an explanation for what triggered the earthquakes? Such as tectonic movement? Movement at some different time from that which caused the uplift or what?
And thank you for the information about the Shinumo but I can't really process it all. I know about the cliff formation shown by intrusion into the upper layer because of the hardness, but Quartzite IS a metamorphic rock-- metamorphic sandstone, correct? So I keep being puzzled how that particular metamorphic rock occurred in the close company of so much nonmetamorphic sedimentary rock. Takes heat and pressure, right? But it's just one layer in the midst of other layers.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 279 by RAZD, posted 12-17-2013 3:33 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 288 by RAZD, posted 12-17-2013 8:02 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 281 of 1896 (713847)
12-17-2013 5:41 AM
Reply to: Message 269 by Atheos canadensis
12-16-2013 8:43 PM


Re: Why is the Old Earth interpretation impossible?
Sigh, I meant commenting ON the argument I've made. I don't comment on your argument.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 269 by Atheos canadensis, posted 12-16-2013 8:43 PM Atheos canadensis has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 282 of 1896 (713848)
12-17-2013 5:47 AM
Reply to: Message 267 by Atheos canadensis
12-16-2013 8:37 PM


Re: Why is the Old Earth interpretation impossible?
Sigh again. You are right that I haven't given any thought to the problems you are posing to me. But unlike those I have been complaining about I have not commented on them either, only to say I'd have to find a way to reinterpret them. But the others here are making judgments about my arguments apparently without having thought about them. OK?
The point about not understanding your argument is that I haven't spent time on it because I'm not interested in that facet of the debate. If I found it relevant I'd spend the time. Right now although I'm posting again about things that DO interest me I'm exhausted, not getting enough sleep, making weird mistakes of all kinds, but I want to feel I DID this argument and I'm not at that point yet.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 267 by Atheos canadensis, posted 12-16-2013 8:37 PM Atheos canadensis has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 297 by Atheos canadensis, posted 12-17-2013 11:22 AM Faith has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(2)
Message 283 of 1896 (713850)
12-17-2013 7:28 AM
Reply to: Message 276 by Faith
12-17-2013 2:50 AM


Re: Two questions for the Old Earthers
Hi Faith,
I anticipated this question up above in my Message 274:
Faith writes:
2) What caused the TILTING of the Supergroup?
You haven't replied to this message, so I don't know if you've seen it yet, but let me answer the question again.
I don't know why RAZD answered "Earthquakes." The tilting of the layers of the supergroup is a typical basin and range phenomena caused by stretching of a tectonic plate. This happened early in the geologic history of the continent, and it happened again later, the effects of which are copiously visible all over the western United States and Canada. The stretching causes the stratigraphic layers to break up into blocks along vertical faults. The blocks then lean slightly. Here's a rough illustration of the process from the Wikipedia article on the Basin and Range Province:
The diagram is primitive and obviously hand drawn, but it's the best I could find. You should imagine that there are many stratigraphic layers, not just the two shown.
The process begins at "A" with horizontal strata.
In "B" the underlying plate has stretched, causing roughly vertical fault lines (which in the diagram are curved but need not be) in the strata above. The strata are now split into a series of blocks.
In "C" the plate continues to stretch, causing the blocks to slide along the fault lines and tilt to fill the extra space.
In "D" the process continues and we see the typical basin and range topography.
Here's another image illustrating a couple variations on this theme:
The Grand Canyon supergroup layers are all that remains of an ancient basin and range of the tilted block variety. If you look beneath the Grand Canyon in this diagram you'll see two blocks of supergroup layers that precisely resemble the blocks of typical basin and range formations:
--Percy
Edited by Percy, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 276 by Faith, posted 12-17-2013 2:50 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 284 by Faith, posted 12-17-2013 7:33 AM Percy has replied
 Message 289 by RAZD, posted 12-17-2013 8:08 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 284 of 1896 (713851)
12-17-2013 7:33 AM
Reply to: Message 283 by Percy
12-17-2013 7:28 AM


Re: Two questions for the Old Earthers
Percy your link that was supposed to go to a message of your own goes to one of mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 283 by Percy, posted 12-17-2013 7:28 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 285 by Percy, posted 12-17-2013 7:35 AM Faith has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 285 of 1896 (713852)
12-17-2013 7:35 AM
Reply to: Message 284 by Faith
12-17-2013 7:33 AM


Re: Two questions for the Old Earthers
Faith writes:
Percy your link that was supposed to go to a message of your own goes to one of mine.
Whoops, sorry, fixed now. It was supposed to be Message 274.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 284 by Faith, posted 12-17-2013 7:33 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 287 by Faith, posted 12-17-2013 8:01 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
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