Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,807 Year: 3,064/9,624 Month: 909/1,588 Week: 92/223 Day: 3/17 Hour: 1/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Six possible things for creationists to disbelieve before breakfast
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2105 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 1 of 35 (712593)
12-04-2013 10:25 PM


400,000-year-old human DNA adds new tangle to our origin story
The title is a play on words* to introduce a serious subject.
The oldest human DNA ever recovered is throwing scientists for a loop: The 400,000-year-old genetic material comes from bones that have been linked to Neanderthals in Spain but its signature is most similar to that of a different ancient human population from Siberia, known as the Denisovans.
Previous analysis of bones from the cave had led researchers to assume that the Sima de los Huesos people were closely related to Neanderthals on the basis of their skeletal features. But the mitochondrial DNA was far more similar to that of the Denisovans, an early human population that was thought to have split off from Neanderthals around 640,000 years ago. The first Denisovan specimens were identified in 2010, based on an analysis of 30,000-year-old bones excavated in Siberia.
This chart shows the relationships of the various species based on complete or nearly complete mitochondrial genomes.
Incidentally, this article is very characteristic of what paleoanthropologists, molecular biologists and related researchers are learning nowadays.
Scientists look at this and say, "Hmmmm. That's interesting. Wonder what that means. Let's see if we can figure it out."
Creationists more likely will look at this same information and say, "That's not possible because of..."
I look at this thread as a way to explore both the new data and its implications, and reasons creationists will present for dismissing it.
* "Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast." The Queen, in Lewis Carroll's Through the Looking-Glass, and What Alice Found There (1871). (Very similar to his Alice's Adventures in Wonderland.)
Edited by Coyote, : No reason given.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Admin, posted 12-05-2013 7:43 AM Coyote has replied
 Message 5 by RAZD, posted 12-05-2013 12:24 PM Coyote has not replied
 Message 8 by Pressie, posted 12-06-2013 2:35 AM Coyote has not replied
 Message 16 by herebedragons, posted 12-10-2013 9:21 AM Coyote has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2105 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 3 of 35 (712595)
12-05-2013 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by Admin
12-05-2013 7:43 AM


Edited
Edited.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Admin, posted 12-05-2013 7:43 AM Admin has seen this message but not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2105 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 6 of 35 (712682)
12-05-2013 10:20 PM


This study presents an important discovery: the picture of hominin evolution is far more complex that we realized.
In the past few years, two important finds have been attributed to a new species based on genetic studies of "fossils." The Denisovans have been found to be genetically distinct, based on mtDNAs, from both Neanderthals and modern humans.
Dates for the original finds from Siberia are around 41,000 years ago. The new find from Spain dates to more like 400,000 years ago. In a post above I included a chart showing tentative mtDNA groupings of these finds along with Neanderthal and modern humans.
I consider these findings important as they give us evidence of a third early critter running around at the same time as humans and Neanderthals. But they also bring up far more questions than they answer. And that's the way science works--folks will now be out using these new techniques to 1) see if they can confirm the findings, and 2) see what else they can discover about hominim evolution during the past 500,000 years.
But we've yet to hear from any creationists on this new discovery.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by nwr, posted 12-06-2013 12:34 AM Coyote has not replied
 Message 10 by Dogmafood, posted 12-06-2013 9:14 PM Coyote has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2105 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 11 of 35 (712803)
12-06-2013 10:12 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Dogmafood
12-06-2013 9:14 PM


That is a branching diagram, going from oldest on the left.
Moving from top to bottom, we have the the Denisovans and Neanderthals, then later the out-of-Africa movement of modern humans, all the way down to the most recent mitochondrial groups, at the bottom, which represent Native Americans.
The interesting things are that 1) the new Spanish find occurs so early on this graph, 2) it is more closely related to the Denisovans than with Neanderthal; and, 3) it is found on the opposite side of the continent from the Denisovans and several hundred thousand years earlier.
Makes one want to go, "Hmmmmm."

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Dogmafood, posted 12-06-2013 9:14 PM Dogmafood has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2105 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 13 of 35 (712809)
12-07-2013 1:31 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Jon
12-06-2013 11:26 PM


Multiregionalism.
My physical anthropology professor in grad school was in favor of that as well.
I still think he was right.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Jon, posted 12-06-2013 11:26 PM Jon has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by RAZD, posted 12-10-2013 8:39 AM Coyote has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2105 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 17 of 35 (713155)
12-10-2013 10:25 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by herebedragons
12-10-2013 9:21 AM


This site has been given a pretty old date from long before the mtDNA was sequenced. The presence of the particular fossils alone suggests an older date.
I'm not sure of the dating methods used as the articles don't say much, but apparently the site has been worked since 1983 and the mtDNA was just sequenced recently.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by herebedragons, posted 12-10-2013 9:21 AM herebedragons has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Dogmafood, posted 03-11-2014 7:43 AM Coyote has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2105 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 20 of 35 (721686)
03-11-2014 11:10 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Dogmafood
03-11-2014 7:43 AM


Re: Neanderthal extinction
The populations do seem to have been small.
But I think we still have a lot to learn about Neanderthal. The DNA sequencing that they're now doing is telling us a lot, and there will be more to come!

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Dogmafood, posted 03-11-2014 7:43 AM Dogmafood has seen this message but not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2105 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 23 of 35 (721832)
03-12-2014 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Dogmafood
03-12-2014 12:48 PM


Re: Neanderthal extinction
They reached Spain, Portugal, and Italy.
But here is an interesting one for you:
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/...a-spain-denisovan-cave

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Dogmafood, posted 03-12-2014 12:48 PM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Dogmafood, posted 03-12-2014 2:49 PM Coyote has not replied
 Message 25 by RAZD, posted 03-12-2014 3:21 PM Coyote has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2105 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(2)
Message 26 of 35 (721860)
03-12-2014 7:53 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by RAZD
03-12-2014 3:21 PM


Re: Neanderthal ancestor?
Here is another interesting read:
Frontiers of Zoology: Neanderthal Family Tree Reflects Geography

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by RAZD, posted 03-12-2014 3:21 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2105 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 29 of 35 (722062)
03-14-2014 9:37 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Dogmafood
03-14-2014 8:43 PM


Re: Neanderthal extinction
I think we still have a lot to learn about those guys.
And now that they are getting DNA from the bones, I think that'll be a big help.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Dogmafood, posted 03-14-2014 8:43 PM Dogmafood has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Biblewarrior, posted 08-26-2015 5:40 AM Coyote has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2105 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 32 of 35 (767113)
08-26-2015 8:18 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by Biblewarrior
08-26-2015 5:40 AM


Re: Neanderthal extinction
Why are the ages assumed?
How did they come to these ages?
As Percy notes, ages up to about 50,000 years are measured by radiocarbon dating.
Older ages are measured or estimated based on a variety of other techniques, some of which are radiometric.
Do you have some problem with ages of that magnitude?

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Biblewarrior, posted 08-26-2015 5:40 AM Biblewarrior has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024