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Author Topic:   Hello everyone
jar
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Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


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Message 9 of 380 (712361)
12-03-2013 10:29 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by scienceishonesty
12-03-2013 10:19 AM


on religion.
The big question is, is the theistic evolution willing to lay aside their belief if emerging scientific evidence invalidates the probability of their current beliefs? If that's the case, then it's time to be honest and just accept that they really are just waiting on the answers and that they don't absolutely know for sure -- which instantly makes them no longer part of a "religion" since religion already knows the purpose for everything and needs no answers.
As a devout Christian I'd disagree with you there. I don't think I know any answers and of course scientific evidence must trump mere beliefs.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by scienceishonesty, posted 12-03-2013 10:19 AM scienceishonesty has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by scienceishonesty, posted 12-03-2013 10:34 AM jar has replied

jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 13 of 380 (712372)
12-03-2013 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by scienceishonesty
12-03-2013 10:34 AM


Re: on religion.
Then I would argue that you are probably not a devout Christian. Do you know it 100% to be the "truth" or not?
You are of course free to argue such nonsense but unfortunately all the evidence shows you are wrong. I was born into a Christian family, raised in a Christian environment, educated in Christian schools, a member of a recognized Chapter of club Christian, helped found new parishes and physically build churches, taught adult and child Sunday school and currently webmaster for several Christian churches.
But I am also honest.
If someone is a member of a recognized chapter of the Elks or Lions or Masons then that person is an Elk or Lion or Mason.
I know that Christianity is almost certainly wrong as is also true of all religions. The Map is NOT the Territory. It's basics like that which the Christian Cult of Ignorance fails to teach and in the long run leads to folk leaving the Church.
Religion has never claimed to have all the answers except when marketed by the Carny Snake Oil Salesmen, Shysters and Con-men.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by scienceishonesty, posted 12-03-2013 10:34 AM scienceishonesty has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by scienceishonesty, posted 12-03-2013 11:26 AM jar has replied

jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 18 of 380 (712377)
12-03-2013 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by scienceishonesty
12-03-2013 11:26 AM


Re: on religion.
Sorry but you are simply wrong yet again.
So in that case you're a Christian culturally without the literal belief in Christianity's teachings?
Not sure what you mean by that but I definitely believe in Christian teachings. Now if by "literal" you are using the Christian Cult of Ignorance version of "literal" which is to claim it while denying the actual evidence, then certainly. I am not a member of the Christian Cult of Ignorance.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by scienceishonesty, posted 12-03-2013 11:26 AM scienceishonesty has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by scienceishonesty, posted 12-03-2013 11:38 AM jar has replied

jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 26 of 380 (712387)
12-03-2013 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by scienceishonesty
12-03-2013 11:38 AM


Re: on religion.
As I said, the Map is not the Territory. When you buy a map you must always understand that it is just a representation and not reality. When you come to a bridge don't rely on the map; look and make sure it is really there.
Religion is taught properly is a map, a guide to how to live your life. Like maps, no religion is actually the territory, they are all just guides and so like maps, will have places where they are wrong, incomplete, not up to date, confusing.
That is true of any and all religions.
Christian teaching are about how to live this life, feed the hungry, cloth the naked, shelter the homeless, heal the sick or injured. educate the ignorant, comfort the sorrowful. It's work, hard, often unpleasant work.
But not all Chapters of Club Christian teach that. Many teach the easy and pleasant, "Are you saved", "Not perfect, just saved", "Born Again" and the cop-out of cop-outs, Original Sin.
It's pitiful.
So it depends on what you mean by "teachings"
If, for example, you mean "the Bible is God's word" then I'd just laugh and pat the child on the head. If you look at the evidence and are honest then you must come to the conclusion that the Bible (and note there is no such thing as "The Bible") was written by men, just plain old humans.
If, for example, you mean "there are no contradictions in the Bible" then I'd just laugh and pat the child on the head. If you read just the first two chapters of the Old Testament and are honest then you must conclude that the God described in Genesis 1 is entirely different than the God described in Genesis 2&3 and that the creation myths involve entirely different methods and order of creation.
If, for example, you mean "There is original sin and all mankind is fallen since Adam & Eve sinned" then I'd just laugh and pat the child on the head.
There is no discrepancy when I say those two things unless you interpret it from the Christian Cult of Ignorance perspective.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by scienceishonesty, posted 12-03-2013 11:38 AM scienceishonesty has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by scienceishonesty, posted 12-03-2013 12:02 PM jar has replied

jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 31 of 380 (712392)
12-03-2013 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by scienceishonesty
12-03-2013 12:02 PM


Re: on religion.
Absolutely. Remember I said religion is a map, not the territory. There can be may maps of the very same territory and each will be slightly different. Each will be more accurate than the others in some details, less accurate in others.
The map I have chosen in Christianity. Had I been brought up differently I would likely be a Jew, a Hindu, an Animist, Moslem, Atheist, Agnostic, Taoist ...
But I'm not, I'm a Christian.
Also, learn to distinguish between "Believe" and "Know".
I may believe very strongly that there really was a Jesus, but I cannot know there was a Jesus.
But whether or not there was a Jesus, whether or not there will be an afterlife and judgement is really irrelevant.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by scienceishonesty, posted 12-03-2013 12:02 PM scienceishonesty has not replied

jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 63 of 380 (712453)
12-03-2013 8:02 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by scienceishonesty
12-03-2013 5:52 PM


Re: Some apology
The Roman Catholic Church was no where near as efficient at genocide as the mostly Protestant US. The RCC aren't even in the same class as the Protestants when it comes to stuff like that.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by scienceishonesty, posted 12-03-2013 5:52 PM scienceishonesty has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by Phat, posted 12-04-2013 4:39 PM jar has not replied
 Message 80 by scienceishonesty, posted 12-04-2013 5:13 PM jar has replied

jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 81 of 380 (712520)
12-04-2013 5:15 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by scienceishonesty
12-04-2013 5:13 PM


Re: Some apology
So the fact that the Protestants could not get themselves organized as well as the Roman Catholics is their excuse?
Oh good grief.
I thought you wanted to work towards personal honesty.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by scienceishonesty, posted 12-04-2013 5:13 PM scienceishonesty has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by scienceishonesty, posted 12-04-2013 5:28 PM jar has replied

jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 84 of 380 (712524)
12-04-2013 5:38 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by scienceishonesty
12-04-2013 5:28 PM


Re: Some apology
Nonsense.
Protestantism evolved for may reasons and mostly over power, control and wealth. The supposed theological issues were almost all resolved quite peacefully at the Councils of Trent.
The Roman Catholic church certainly has admitted that past popes did wrong and sinned. Popes have reversed the churches position on many things.
But as an honest Protestant Christian I must admit that my Chapter of Club Christian broke from the Roman Catholic Church for no reasons that had anything to do with faith, beliefs or dogma and that Protestants have been every bit as genocidal as the RCC, particularly US Protestants and in fact we were far more successful then the RCC at genocide.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by scienceishonesty, posted 12-04-2013 5:28 PM scienceishonesty has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by scienceishonesty, posted 12-04-2013 5:47 PM jar has replied

jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 89 of 380 (712538)
12-04-2013 8:32 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by scienceishonesty
12-04-2013 5:47 PM


Re: Some apology
No, early protestantism emerged because of the fact that many of the common people wanted to read the Bible in their own language. The RCC tried in every way they could to prevent this through systematic persecution and torture (numbering in at least hundreds of thousands). Their purpose was to keep the lay people in ignorance so that they couldn't come up with their own biblical interpretations that ran contrary to church teaching -- it came down to control and money (for the RCC). It also arose out of perceived abuses such as buying your way into heaven.
Utter nonsense.
Have you actually read anything of the history except the propaganda put out by the Christian Cult of Ignorance?
There was never an abuse of buying you way into heaven, that is simply a lie put out by several of the early Protestant marketeers.
Bible translations were happening regardless of opposition.
The largest of the Protestant movements at the time was the Church of England and it broke away simply because a couple calendars could not be synced.
Stop and think. You're still dealing with information from folk whose whole belief system is based on willful ignorance and dishonesty. Now that you have understood that they were lying about stuff that is really easy to check like the age of the earth and evolution, why would you expect them to be honest about anything else?
Actually stop and read the 95 Treatise and you will see that Luther supported the Popes position. In addition, if you read the results of the Trent Councils you will find that the Roman Catholic Church agreed with almost every point and adopted almost every suggestion presented.
Invest time in learning facts and not just propaganda.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by scienceishonesty, posted 12-04-2013 5:47 PM scienceishonesty has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Theodoric, posted 12-04-2013 8:52 PM jar has replied
 Message 100 by scienceishonesty, posted 12-05-2013 11:21 AM jar has replied

jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 94 of 380 (712566)
12-05-2013 9:14 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by Theodoric
12-04-2013 8:52 PM


Re: Some apology
Yeah, that was one of the two calendars.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Theodoric, posted 12-04-2013 8:52 PM Theodoric has not replied

jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 111 of 380 (712617)
12-05-2013 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by scienceishonesty
12-05-2013 11:21 AM


Re: Some apology
Of course I'm not going to deny there were indulgences, but how much do you actually know about indulgences?
The history of why it emerged though was chiefly because the common people wanted to read the Bible in their own language so that they could see for themselves what the "will of God" was rather than the Catholic Clergy interpreting it for them.
That is what the Christian Cult of Ignorance preaches however reality is far more complex that bumper stickers.
The Waldensians, Huguenots, etc etc were all just common folk wanting to teach the Bible in their own way and were persecuted ruthlessly by the Catholic Church.
Again, that is the fiction. Actually they were as intolerant and violent as the RCC.
But of course, that is all just fantasy right?
Of course it is mostly fantasy and propaganda. Both sides were really to blame; both sides were intolerant, both sides committed genocide.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by scienceishonesty, posted 12-05-2013 11:21 AM scienceishonesty has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by scienceishonesty, posted 12-05-2013 12:17 PM jar has replied

jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 120 of 380 (712630)
12-05-2013 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by scienceishonesty
12-05-2013 12:17 PM


Re: Some apology
I know the history was complex but why do you deny that the desire for common folk to read the Bible in their own language was the driving force behind it? If they had not attempted to contradict the RCC Protestantism wouldn't have happened and there would have been no conflict.
I don't deny that it might have been a minor point but it was just one very small factor.
As I mentioned earlier, have you read the 95 Treatise?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by scienceishonesty, posted 12-05-2013 12:17 PM scienceishonesty has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by scienceishonesty, posted 12-05-2013 12:27 PM jar has replied

jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 123 of 380 (712633)
12-05-2013 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by scienceishonesty
12-05-2013 12:27 PM


Re: Some apology
Again, have you actually read the 95 Treatise?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by scienceishonesty, posted 12-05-2013 12:27 PM scienceishonesty has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by scienceishonesty, posted 12-05-2013 12:50 PM jar has replied

jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 136 of 380 (712648)
12-05-2013 1:53 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by scienceishonesty
12-05-2013 12:50 PM


Re: Some apology
It is the 95 point list of grievances that Martin Luther tacked to the church door. It's really short so start there.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by scienceishonesty, posted 12-05-2013 12:50 PM scienceishonesty has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by Faith, posted 12-05-2013 2:39 PM jar has replied
 Message 141 by scienceishonesty, posted 12-05-2013 6:02 PM jar has replied

jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 138 of 380 (712653)
12-05-2013 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by Faith
12-05-2013 2:39 PM


Re: 95 theses, Waldensians and Huguenots
Yet the Councils of Trent adopted almost every reform Luther mentioned.
A King and the Pope are two different things Faith.
Remember that the Huguenots were also a military power during the French Wars of Religion which just as in England had almost nothing to do with religion and lots to do with wealth, power and property.
My point is that the Protestants were NOT just peaceful folk that wanted to read the Bible in their own language but were every bit as intolerant, genocidal and violent as the Roman Catholic Church, perhaps even more so.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Faith, posted 12-05-2013 2:39 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by Faith, posted 12-05-2013 4:34 PM jar has replied

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