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Author Topic:   Why "YEC"/Fundamentalist Creationism is BAD for America
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 62 of 238 (711503)
11-19-2013 4:10 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by ICANT
11-19-2013 3:58 PM


Re: Creation
CS writes:
A gradual emergence with no discernible beginning.
A gradual beginning just means that it had a beginning but just took a long time to complete.
No, as stipulated, there is no discernible beginning.
CS writes:
Two half-verses, with their own existence, combining to make a whole universe.
But those two verses existed already just not in the form it was after they combined.Would those two verses you are talking about have had a beginning to exist or would they have existed eternally in the past?
My first claim is the universe has existed eternally in some form just not the form we see today. In other words the materials it is made of existed eternally.
But they are not the universe existing in some form. And those two half-universes emerged from two quarter-universes each.
Did the universe exist at T=0? No
There is no at T=0, its an asymptote.
You haven't ever presented another option.
But I have. Multiple times now. With explanations how they refute you.
Once you have presented evidence I will consider it. If it is true then I will change what I believe.
Your behavior shows this to be a lie. You will just dig your heels in further and maintain your belief in spite of all the evidence and explanations.
Until you are some one else presents evidence that the universe has not always existed in some form or had a beginning to exist I will keep that position.
No, you will keep your position regardless. And we'll all watch it happen (its already begun).
That's one of the problems with YEC. They already think they're right and nothing anyone ever says can change that. You're exhibiting this behavior exactly.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by ICANT, posted 11-19-2013 3:58 PM ICANT has not replied

  
marc9000
Member
Posts: 1522
From: Ky U.S.
Joined: 12-25-2009


Message 63 of 238 (711588)
11-20-2013 3:31 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Dr Adequate
11-16-2013 8:53 PM


marc9000 writes:
Shouldn't education be about teaching students how to think, not what to think?
Could you make this proposal more concrete? For example, instead of teaching them the periodic table, we should do what? Teach them the scientific method and give them some boxes of matter, let them figure it out?
No, the first step would be to make sure they know that science isn't the only source of knowledge, that when the U.S. was founded, and it was being determined what would be good or bad for it, that science had very little to do with it. Teaching them how to think, not what to think, as one example, would be to make sure they understand what Federalist Paper #10 was about, including the definition of what a 'faction' is.
The benefit of education is that we do not personally have to repeat the process of discovery that took our species thousands of years to accomplish.
That's for sure, if we give in to atheist, liberal, global warming factions, all the irreversible problems it is sure to cause could have been avoided if only those who allowed it to happen had known something about the tyrannies of history.
marc9000 writes:
By teaching them a broad spectrum of an issue, even the controversial ones?
So we should teach them, what, that the Holocaust didn't happen?
No, history shows that it did. I'm not sure if the scientific community is attempting to revise that or not, however. If they are, it shouldn't be taught as fact.
That germs don't cause disease?
That's not controversial.
There is something to be said for teaching students "how to think" which is that they'd be too ashamed to put forward drivel like that as an argument.
I'm sure most atheists/liberals in the scientific community consider any discussion about U.S. financial problems to be "drivel" because most of them don't have even a high school level knowledge of economics.
But a quick course on critical thinking would achieve that, it needn't be at the expense of teaching them scientific facts.
Of course not, I'm sure atheist liberal courses on critical thinking would include nothing more than science, and have little to do with history, economics, morals, etc.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-16-2013 8:53 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 79 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-21-2013 10:38 AM marc9000 has not replied

  
marc9000
Member
Posts: 1522
From: Ky U.S.
Joined: 12-25-2009


(1)
Message 64 of 238 (711592)
11-20-2013 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Theodoric
11-18-2013 9:30 PM


Not climate scientists.
Again not climate scientists.
Climate scientists aren't completely in charge of U.S. political decisions, and their opinions of what is bad or good for the U.S. is of minor importance.
Do you read things you post?
Of course, if they didn't have information of the special interests that opposed them, I wouldn't think they'd have much credibility.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Theodoric, posted 11-18-2013 9:30 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by Theodoric, posted 11-20-2013 5:29 PM marc9000 has not replied

  
marc9000
Member
Posts: 1522
From: Ky U.S.
Joined: 12-25-2009


(4)
Message 65 of 238 (711593)
11-20-2013 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Tangle
11-19-2013 2:49 AM


Re: another empty argument attempt to push religious views in education
The words 'science', 'atheist' and 'liberal' are not synonyms. Your conspiracy paranoia is telling.
The tone of the O/P is loaded with all three. Only those who are completely blinded by all three wouldn't be able to see it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Tangle, posted 11-19-2013 2:49 AM Tangle has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-20-2013 3:53 PM marc9000 has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


(5)
Message 66 of 238 (711595)
11-20-2013 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by marc9000
11-20-2013 3:31 PM


More dishonesty from marc9000
That's for sure, if we give in to atheist, liberal, global warming factions, all the irreversible problems it is sure to cause could have been avoided if only those who allowed it to happen had known something about the tyrannies of history.
That is just another of your unsupported and dishonest misrepresentations.
Science and opposition to creationism and the Christian Cult of Ignorance have nothing to do with atheism, liberalism, global warming factions or not knowing about the tyrannies of history.
It has to do with Creationism being dishonest, based on falsehoods, denying reality and the universe GOD created.
But I do think it should be taught in schools, in science, in social studies, in history as the example of what happens when people check their brains at the door and stop using the gifts GOD gave them.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by marc9000, posted 11-20-2013 3:31 PM marc9000 has not replied

Replies to this message:
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marc9000
Member
Posts: 1522
From: Ky U.S.
Joined: 12-25-2009


(1)
Message 67 of 238 (711597)
11-20-2013 3:49 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by RAZD
11-19-2013 7:53 AM


Re: another empty argument attempt to push religious views in education
History is evidence of what someone wrote, and does not necessarily represent truth. It is anecdotal evidence rather than objective empirical evidence. When it is contradicted by objective empirical evidence it is discarded.
You use the word "empirical" as if it's a foolproof, scientific only term. Let's see what dictionary.com has to say about the word;
1)derived from or guided by experience or experiment.
2)depending upon experience or observation alone, without using scientific method or theory, especially as in medicine.
3)provable or verifiable by experience or experiment.
Particularly regarding #2, the tyrants of the religions of 250 years ago could correctly say the evidence of their religion was empirical.
marc9000 writes:
... There's not always objective empirical evidence for every question about reality. The time has come to realize that science has been taken over by political special interests. It's no longer a "disinterested pursuit of knowledge", and needs to be policed for what it has become.
Says you who desperately wants to run science according to religious beliefs (see On The Limits of Human Talent) and force it to comply with your opinion/beliefs.
Says you who desperately wants to run U.S. politics according to atheist/liberal beliefs, and not one other scientific poster on these forums has questioned you on that so far. You're not going to answer my question about where you're from?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by RAZD, posted 11-19-2013 7:53 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 68 of 238 (711600)
11-20-2013 3:53 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by marc9000
11-20-2013 3:39 PM


Re: another empty argument attempt to push religious views in education
The words 'science', 'atheist' and 'liberal' are not synonyms. Your conspiracy paranoia is telling.
The tone of the O/P is loaded with all three.
Um, the OP self-proclaims himself to be a deist...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by marc9000, posted 11-20-2013 3:39 PM marc9000 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by marc9000, posted 11-20-2013 3:58 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
marc9000
Member
Posts: 1522
From: Ky U.S.
Joined: 12-25-2009


Message 69 of 238 (711601)
11-20-2013 3:53 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Theodoric
11-19-2013 10:00 AM


Re: another empty argument attempt to push religious views in education
I have stated this before, but will reiterate again, you really should read these things you find through Google (I suggest DuckDuckGo, no tracking). Many things you use as a reference, like this, don't actually support what you claim. You should read both of the posts by Professor Kahane. If you understand them you wont think they are in any way supportive of your position.
They always support what I claim, just because there is opposition to them doesn't make them invalid. The good professor probably got contacted by someone in control of his job, or his life, telling him to get busy and fix his mistake, if he knows what's good for him.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Theodoric, posted 11-19-2013 10:00 AM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
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marc9000
Member
Posts: 1522
From: Ky U.S.
Joined: 12-25-2009


Message 70 of 238 (711602)
11-20-2013 3:58 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by New Cat's Eye
11-20-2013 3:53 PM


Re: another empty argument attempt to push religious views in education
Um, the OP self-proclaims himself to be a deist...
There is often a lot of difference between what someone claims himself to be, and what he writes. But todays deists don't show themselves to be any different from atheists anyway. Very little similarity between todays deists and those few who were involved in U.S. founding.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-20-2013 3:53 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(3)
Message 71 of 238 (711607)
11-20-2013 4:24 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by marc9000
11-20-2013 3:58 PM


Re: another empty argument attempt to push religious views in education
Um, the OP self-proclaims himself to be a deist...
There is often a lot of difference between what someone claims himself to be, and what he writes.
Well thank god we have you here to set us straight!
But todays deists don't show themselves to be any different from atheists anyway.
Well, apart from the whole believing in god thing.
Very little similarity between todays deists and those few who were involved in U.S. founding.
Psh, Thomas Jefferson rewrote the Bible and took all the magic out of it...
I think your arrogance exhibits one of the reasons that creationism is bad for America.
It takes a certain amount of conceit to think that you can take some writing from a guy who calls himself a deist and "determine" that they really aren't one.
Or call all scientists atheist liberals.
The hubris, its maddening.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by marc9000, posted 11-20-2013 3:58 PM marc9000 has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9373
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
Message 72 of 238 (711616)
11-20-2013 5:29 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by marc9000
11-20-2013 3:36 PM


Climate scientists aren't completely in charge of U.S. political decisions, and their opinions of what is bad or good for the U.S. is of minor importance.
You are amazing. Are you saying that political decisions should not be based on science.
Of course, if they didn't have information of the special interests that opposed them, I wouldn't think they'd have much credibility.
Wow! If you actually read this stuff and still think they support you, then your reading comprehension and/or basic science skills are very lacking.
Even when you are shown that you are misunderstanding something you still go with it. Cognitive dissonance at its finest.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by marc9000, posted 11-20-2013 3:36 PM marc9000 has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9373
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


(2)
Message 73 of 238 (711617)
11-20-2013 5:31 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by marc9000
11-20-2013 3:53 PM


Re: another empty argument attempt to push religious views in education
They always support what I claim, just because there is opposition to them doesn't make them invalid. The good professor probably got contacted by someone in control of his job, or his life, telling him to get busy and fix his mistake, if he knows what's good for him.
The scary thing is that you actual believe this.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by marc9000, posted 11-20-2013 3:53 PM marc9000 has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9373
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
Message 74 of 238 (711618)
11-20-2013 5:32 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by marc9000
11-20-2013 3:58 PM


Re: another empty argument attempt to push religious views in education
You obviously know very little about the founders.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by marc9000, posted 11-20-2013 3:58 PM marc9000 has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1523 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 75 of 238 (711654)
11-21-2013 8:51 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by marc9000
11-20-2013 3:31 PM


No, the first step would be to make sure they know that science isn't the only source of knowledge, that when the U.S. was founded, and it was being determined what would be good or bad for it, that science had very little to do with it. ...
For the simple reason that this is before scientific investigation became formalized and different branches of investigation began, ... certainly it was before Darwin was born.
And for the simple reason that this was the "age of reason" and a lot of people were questioning authority, the rational basis for government and even the rational of church based religions.
The separation of church and state being part of that.
... Teaching them how to think, not what to think, as one example, ...
Would be a good idea indeed, especially when it comes to unfounded beliefs and irrational biases, or when it comes to cherry-picking history while ignoring the whole picture.
... would be to make sure they understand what Federalist Paper #10 was about, ...
Oh there you go cherry-picking and telling people what to think not how to think.
... including the definition of what a 'faction' is.
Such as the different factions within religions that don't agree with one another, to say nothing about the disagreement between religions ... and the rational reason that separation of church and state is critical to preserving the freedom of all people to pursue their personal beliefs?
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1523 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(4)
Message 76 of 238 (711658)
11-21-2013 9:05 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by jar
11-20-2013 3:42 PM


Re: More dishonesty from marc9000
But I do think it should be taught in schools, in science, in social studies, in history as the example of what happens when people check their brains at the door and stop using the gifts GOD gave them.
nothing is completely useless -- it can always be used as a bad example
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by jar, posted 11-20-2013 3:42 PM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
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