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Author | Topic: Conversations with God | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18299 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
I read a great article this morning which mirrors the way that I believe. The article, titled Help Thou My Unbelief was written by Ryan Ahlgrim, lead pastor of First Mennonite Church in Indianapolis. He says:
God is an unsolvable puzzle, a mystery that I know I can never understandbut God is also the ground of my meaning and purpose. The difference between me and you is not thaqt you have embraced any facts which I have clearly missed. The difference, as I see it, is that you cant or wont trust uncertainty and in fact have no desire to believe to begin with...whereas I do.
I then came to the realization that my faith in God was not because of historical, scientific, or philosophical evidence, but because I experienced a relationship with God. Through prayer, Bible reading, corporate worship, the beauty of nature, and even my daily routines, I experienced life as meaningful, with a gracious presence behind it all. God was not an idea I intellectually came to believe in. Rather, God was that with whom I had a relationship of awe and reverence, the ground from which sprung my belief in love, goodness, and hope. You have sought to find proof in order to disbelieve...I have sought proof in order to believe.
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8529 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 5.1
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You have sought to find proof in order to disbelieve...I have sought proof in order to believe. For the first part, no, I have no intent to anything. I see the facts, I hear the experts, your's, their's and other's. I read more experts and I see more facts. The facts lead down a path. I follow. As for the second part, you are entitled. In a world where reality defies your beliefs I imagine it quite difficult to hold on to those beliefs. Find solace wherever you can. Your path is paved with different stuff. Too bad it ultimately leads nowhere.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined:
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Faith is a gift from God, but if you want it you can ask Him for it, He's generous with those who seek. There's nothing "healthy" about doubt, nothing admirable either; doubt is simply our natural state, a legacy from the Fall. You all keep trying to make it into a virtue it just isn't.
Oh we also naturally have "faith" in lots of things too, like the sun coming up in the morning, like gravity more or less keeping us from flying off into space, like furniture not rising up and throwing us on the floor. But faith in the God of the Bible, the salvation offered us there and nowhere else, no, nobody has THAT faith naturally. That's why God gave us His revelation, so we do have a chance at faith in Him through the fog of our fallen nature. As I've said before there IS evidence for it, tons of it, but you can make yourself blind to it if you're so inclined. Again, you can seek faith in the God of the Bible if you'd really like to have it, but again, in the end it's a gift. Me, I'm SO grateful for that gift. It's made sense of things nobody can possibly make sense of without it.
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8529 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 5.1
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Intellect is a gift of evolution and we didn't have to seek or ask for it. It is available to all people to varying degrees and we can use it or neglect it as we desire.
Our intellect is most powerful in curiosity, in questioning and doubting our own perceptions and the insistent perceptions of others and in testing, observing and modeling the works of the world around us. One of the things our intellect has shown us is that we do not have to rely on magic or faith to coax the sun to rise in the morning since we know precisely why, when and how the clockwork of the heavens works. We know with certainty where the sun will break over our horizon, what path for what duration it will transit our skies and where and when it will transect the horizon again. We do not have to hope for this. We know it will happen. Another thing our intellect has shown us is that the proposition that we are bad people, unworthy of this life, sinners whose only sins are being born and breathing, is reprehensible to reality, bankrupt of all humanity and is a most evil and violent philosophy worthy of nothing but rejection. Our intellect has shown us that we are the masters of our own destiny. That we rule our own minds and our own actions. That we need not ask for purpose or salvation or revelation from anything other than ourselves, our society and our species.
Faith is a gift from God ... No. Faith is your nom de fora. Would you like a cup of tea, M'lady? (_)? Edited by AZPaul3, : added thought
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Poor deceived fallen intellect. Can sure rustle up the bravado though.
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jar Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
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While it is certainly possible that your intellect has fallen and you can't get it up, what makes you think someone else intellect has fallen?
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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ringo Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
I think of "insanity" as the inability to function in society. In a society where everybody wears their pajamas on the street and yells at parking meters, the man in the gray flannel suit is insane. There are far too many sane people that believe for me to dismiss it all as wishful thinking... If there are believers who are sane it's only because our society is flexible enough to accomodate them.
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Phat Member Posts: 18299 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Ringo writes: How gracious of us! If there are believers who are sane it's only because our society is flexible enough to accommodate them. Perhaps I should clarify, so as to satisfy your sanity requirements. There are far too many sane people whom believe and do for me to question their sanity or their conclusions. I guess that my point is that belief does not get the respect that it deserves these days.
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Jon Inactive Member |
I guess that my point is that belief does not get the respect that it deserves these days. Why does belief deserve any respect? And what kind of respect does it deserve?Love your enemies!
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Phat Member Posts: 18299 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
It is the holder of the belief that deserves respect. After all, some people think the Koran is a Holy Book...I certainly wouldnt use one to prop up the uneven leg on the couch were they to be likely to drop by....
Plus i get tired of these same worn out arguments that require evidence for belief. Of course, I am free to avoid forums, I suppose....
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jar Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Respect should be earned not given.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Phat Member Posts: 18299 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Salvation was a free gift. We humans certainly didn't earn it.
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jar Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
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I know that is what you believe but you do not and cannot know.
BUT what does that have to do with respect being earned?Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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ringo Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
The problem is that it's believers who don't respect other believers. Unbelievers tend to treat all beliefs equally. Believers often don't.
I guess that my point is that belief does not get the respect that it deserves these days.
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ramoss Member (Idle past 633 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: |
Why do you think there is salvation, and what are we being saved for?
In the Jewish view, there is no 'salvation' needed (as defined by Christianity), so that concept is null and void.
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