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Author Topic:   Islamophobia or a real reason to fear?
Tangle
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Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 1 of 21 (710314)
11-04-2013 1:45 PM


This appeared on Sam Harris's blog recently.
What follows is a description of the footage of a video (below) of a Muslim peace conference in Norway written by the organisers:
When Muslim organizations invite Shaykhs who speak openly about the values of Islam, the Islamophobic western media starts murdering the character of that organization and the invited speaker. The question these Islamophobic journalists need to reflect upon is; are these so called ‘‘radical’’ views that they criticize endorsed only by these few individuals being invited around the globe, or does the common Muslims believe in them.
If the common Muslims believe in these values that means that more or less all Muslims are radical and that Islam is a radical religion. Since this is not the case, as Islam is a peaceful religion and so are the masses of common Muslims, these Shaykhs cannot be radical. Rather it is Islamophobia from the ignorant western media who is more concerned about making money by alienating Islam by presenting Muslims in this way.
Islam Net, an organization in Norway, invited 9 speakers to Peace Conference Scandinavia 2013. These speakers would most likely be labelled as ‘‘extremists’’ if the media were to write about the conference. But how come this conference was the largest Islamic Scandinavian International event that has taken place in Norway with about 4000 people attending? Were the majority of those who attended in opposition to what the speakers were preaching? If so, how come they paid to enter? Let’s forget about that for a moment, let’s imagine that we don’t really knew what all these people thought about for example segregation of men and women, or stoning to death of those who commit adultery.
The Chairman of Islam Net, Fahad Ullah Qureshi asked the audience, and the answer was clear. The attendees were common Sunni Muslims. They did not consider themselves as radicals or extremists. They believed that segregation was the right thing to do, both men and women agreed upon this. They even supported stoning or whatever punishment Islam or prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) commanded for adultery or any other crime. They even believed that these practises should be implemented around the world. Now what does that tell us?
Either all Muslims and Islam is radical, or the media is Islamophobic and racist in their presentation of Islam. Islam is not radical, nor is Muslims in general radical. That means that the media is the reason for the hatred against Muslims, which is spreading among the non-Muslims in western countries.
Sam says this in response:
This is a remarkable document. Read it closely, and you will pass through the looking glass. The organizers of this conference believe (with good reason) that extremist views are not rare among Muslims, even in the West. And they consider the media’s denial of this fact to be a symptom of Islamophobia. The serpent of obscurantism has finally begun to devour its own tail. Apparently, it is a sign of racism to imagine that only a tiny minority of Muslims could actually condone the subjugation of women and the murder of apostates. How dare you call us extremists when we represent so many? We are not extreme. This is Islam. They have a point. And it is time for secular liberals and (truly) moderate Muslims to stop denying it.
There's a short video of the actual event here - it's quite remarkable:
The audience is, of course, self-selecting so it can't be a proper indication of what the majority of Muslims believe (or is it?), but even so it's a bit of a fright.
Edited by Tangle, : Spelling.....

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

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Adminnemooseus
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Message 2 of 21 (710347)
11-04-2013 6:57 PM


Thread Moved from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
NosyNed
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Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


(1)
Message 3 of 21 (710353)
11-04-2013 7:48 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Tangle
11-04-2013 1:45 PM


S c a r y !
That is as scary as anything I have seen. It's right up there (or beyond) most of the lunatic fundies of the USofA.

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 4 of 21 (710361)
11-04-2013 8:13 PM


crazy folk are crazy
If I were a Muslim those folk would scare me almost as much as the USA Christian fundies scare me. The biggest difference is if those crazies took over a government like Pakistan they might have an arsenal of a dozen or so nukes. That can be a pretty serious threat but still minor compared to a Fundy controlled US of A.
Edited by jar, : left out would

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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AZPaul3
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Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 5 of 21 (710365)
11-04-2013 9:32 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by jar
11-04-2013 8:13 PM


Re: crazy folk are crazy
Don't miss the point being made here. These are not fundamentalist moslems vis-a-vis fundamentalist christians. These are the mainstream moslems.
Where the larger community of mainstream christians and jews repudiate the excess bloodshed of, say, Leviticus, the larger community of mainstream moslems would never consider repudiating anything in the koran. To do so is apostasy punishable by death, which seems to be the preferred punishment for just about everything in the religion of peace.

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nwr
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Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 6 of 21 (710367)
11-04-2013 10:04 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by AZPaul3
11-04-2013 9:32 PM


Re: crazy folk are crazy
Don't miss the point being made here. These are not fundamentalist moslems vis-a-vis fundamentalist christians. These are the mainstream moslems.
Suppose you had a room full of mainstream Christians. And suppose, at the podium, you had people who were obviously Christian clerics.
Now suppose that the clerics asked some very leading questions, worded in a way to suggest that people would be violating their Christianity if they did not respond in a particular way.
How do you think those mainstream Christians would respond?

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

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Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 7 of 21 (710369)
11-04-2013 10:13 PM


Sideways...
Any religion that seeks to impose it's views on others by force can stuff it.
Where the sun don't shine...

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

  
AZPaul3
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Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 8 of 21 (710382)
11-05-2013 3:05 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by nwr
11-04-2013 10:04 PM


Re: crazy folk are crazy
How do you think those mainstream Christians would respond?
You've never been to a Baptist Convention have you.
But I understand your point. Peer pressure is powerful.
But so is the prevailing view of the moslem majority that the koran is sacred and cannot be challenged. It will make them feel bad and sick at heart but the stoning is an order from god and must be obeyed. This is not radical, this is mainstream.
Talk to a moslem. Know from their own words.

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yenmor
Member (Idle past 3656 days)
Posts: 145
Joined: 07-01-2013


Message 9 of 21 (710386)
11-05-2013 6:20 AM


I see this as more or less like the mainstream Christianity of America. Try to think of this in terms of gay rights. Most people when asked are very nice. Polls keep showing most people support gay rights. Pull any random christian off the street and he'll tell you he loves everyone. And yet when it's time to vote the result is always homophobic in nature. Not just gay marriage but adoption by gay folks as well.
How did you think these extreme views got in power in the Muslim world? Pull any random Muslim aside and he will swear up and down most of Islam is not like that. And yet most Muslims keep putting nutcase in power.
In both cases, the super majority have latent hate in them so they quietly support extremists while maintaining a nice outward face.
Edited by yenmor, : No reason given.

  
caffeine
Member (Idle past 1024 days)
Posts: 1800
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008


Message 10 of 21 (710387)
11-05-2013 6:29 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by AZPaul3
11-05-2013 3:05 AM


Re: crazy folk are crazy
But so is the prevailing view of the moslem majority that the koran is sacred and cannot be challenged. It will make them feel bad and sick at heart but the stoning is an order from god and must be obeyed. This is not radical, this is mainstream.
Talk to a moslem. Know from their own words.
I've talked to many. Never met one that endorsed stoning, though.

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frako
Member (Idle past 306 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 11 of 21 (710390)
11-05-2013 7:33 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Tangle
11-04-2013 1:45 PM


The audience is, of course, self-selecting so it can't be a proper indication of what the majority of Muslims believe (or is it?), but even so it's a bit of a fright.
A guy and his family that i rent a flat too are Muslim, their son has a protestant girlfriend, his family does not care what religion she is as long as they are happy the protestant family does not speak to their daughter any more.
You have good religious people good atheist people bad religious people, and bad atheists, but only with religion can good people do evil things.

Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand
What are the Christians gonna do to me ..... Forgive me, good luck with that.

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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 12 of 21 (710392)
11-05-2013 7:44 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by caffeine
11-05-2013 6:29 AM


Re: crazy folk are crazy
In a past life I spent many months, off and on, in Detroit where I had contact with one our largest moslem communities. What I experienced was a welcome, open, hospitable community of normal everyday people. But, when it came to the koran there was no choice but to accept that it was god's word and must be obeyed in all things. These were not radical acolytes wearing their religion on their sleeves the way we see the evangelicals and orthodox jews. They were the rank and file, the laity of the mosque.
Being in eastern Europe you have probably seen more. I do not mean to start a tussle of dueling dictionaries but if I may ask
Never met one that endorsed stoning, though.
endorsed or reluctantly condoned?
I wish we had some moslems in this EvC community for such discussions.

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nwr
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Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 13 of 21 (710395)
11-05-2013 7:58 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by AZPaul3
11-05-2013 3:05 AM


Re: crazy folk are crazy
But I understand your point. Peer pressure is powerful.
But so is the prevailing view of the moslem majority that ...
I certainly think that Islam poses a threat. But, in the USA, I am currently more concerned by the threat from right wing Christianity.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

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vimesey
Member
Posts: 1398
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


Message 14 of 21 (710396)
11-05-2013 8:04 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by AZPaul3
11-05-2013 7:44 AM


Re: crazy folk are crazy
I wish we had some moslems in this EvC community for such discussions.
We could invite the Muslim Council of Britain to nominate someone to join us ? The MCB is a strong voice of reason, tolerance and progressiveness in the UK.

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 15 of 21 (710399)
11-05-2013 8:25 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by AZPaul3
11-04-2013 9:32 PM


Re: crazy folk are crazy
They self identify as mainstream.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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