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Author Topic:   What if Jesus and Satan were real?
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 151 of 591 (708021)
10-03-2013 4:58 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by Phat
10-03-2013 4:48 PM


Re: Some things to think about
Giving your heart does involve doing something, but the Matthew sheep/goats scripture is addressed to Jews who need to do good works (and obey the Law perfectly..or as near as can be done) in order to be righteous.
How do you know which of Jesus' teachings were meant for those people back then and which ones were meant for us today?
People make the mistake of assuming that the Gospel of Grace preached by the Apostle Paul is some sort of cheap substitute and marketing gimmick
That's because of the behavior of its proponents...
You cant simply go do good works and have a callous indifference to God. It wont work.
That god is kind of a jerk.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by Phat, posted 10-03-2013 4:48 PM Phat has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 152 of 591 (708022)
10-03-2013 5:08 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by Phat
10-03-2013 4:48 PM


Wrong Phat!
Phat writes:
Giving your heart does involve doing something, but the Matthew sheep/goats scripture is addressed to Jews who need to do good works (and obey the Law perfectly..or as near as can be done) in order to be righteous.
Nonsense Phat and you know better than to try crap like that.
quote:
Matthew 25:31 When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by Phat, posted 10-03-2013 4:48 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by Phat, posted 10-03-2013 6:01 PM jar has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 153 of 591 (708025)
10-03-2013 5:37 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by Phat
10-01-2013 9:39 AM


Re: Walking Snakes and Living Stones
My point is that Jesus needs to be more than "real" simply as a great human example of what to do. Jesus being real implies that the resurrection has and had a power to change peoples lives
Which has absolutely nothing to do with the question I asked you.
I'm not sure getting answers out of you is worth the effort. I'm dropping out of active participation in this thread for awhile to see if anyone else can make any sense out of what you post.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by Phat, posted 10-01-2013 9:39 AM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 154 of 591 (708027)
10-03-2013 5:59 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by Theodoric
10-01-2013 2:04 PM


Re: Some things to think about
Theodoric writes:
..."A bunch of words just strung together because they sound nice and sound like they actually mean something when in fact they mean nothing."
Im assuming that you believe that you yourself give meanings that you choose to words that you either say or read. Either that or you assume some sort of secular consensus...which is rubbish. Here, tell me what you think the following words mean...to you. Then tell me what you think the author intended the meaning to be.
quote:
John 6:63-64
63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life. 64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by Theodoric, posted 10-01-2013 2:04 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 155 of 591 (708028)
10-03-2013 6:01 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by jar
10-03-2013 5:08 PM


Re: Wrong Phat!
Who is His audience?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by jar, posted 10-03-2013 5:08 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by jar, posted 10-03-2013 6:44 PM Phat has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 156 of 591 (708031)
10-03-2013 6:44 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by Phat
10-03-2013 6:01 PM


Re: Wrong Phat!
What the hell does the story say?
It says "All the nations". Have you joined yet another of the dispensationalist cults?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by Phat, posted 10-03-2013 6:01 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by Phat, posted 10-03-2013 10:11 PM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 157 of 591 (708039)
10-03-2013 10:11 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by jar
10-03-2013 6:44 PM


A Matter Of Speculation and Discernment
You know me. I seek honesty and the Spirit.
You may argue that I have historically preferred fantasy over reality, but I would respond by saying that it is an unresolved matter what proportion and distribution of each is.(fantasy & reality)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by jar, posted 10-03-2013 6:44 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by jar, posted 10-04-2013 8:47 AM Phat has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 158 of 591 (708053)
10-04-2013 8:47 AM
Reply to: Message 157 by Phat
10-03-2013 10:11 PM


Re: A Matter Of Speculation and Discernment
You know me. I seek honesty and the Spirit.
You may argue that I have historically preferred fantasy over reality, but I would respond by saying that it is an unresolved matter what proportion and distribution of each is.(fantasy & reality).
Do you?
Reality can be tested. We can actually go read Matthew 25 to see what it says the audience was.
It appears the answer to my question is "Yes, you've joined another of the dispensationalist cults".
They make you feel good and so you accept gladly their misrepresentation of what the Bible actually says. You prefer the comfortable fantasy over the unpleasant reality.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by Phat, posted 10-03-2013 10:11 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by Phat, posted 10-05-2013 8:42 AM jar has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 159 of 591 (708064)
10-04-2013 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 150 by Phat
10-03-2013 4:48 PM


Re: Some things to think about
Phat writes:
Giving your heart does involve doing something, but the Matthew sheep/goats scripture is addressed to Jews who need to do good works (and obey the Law perfectly..or as near as can be done) in order to be righteous.
So, if the sheep/goats scripture doesn't apply to you what do you have to do to be righteous? How does Jewish righteousness differ from Gentile righteousness?
Phat writes:
... the point of giving your heart is that you allow the Holy Spirit to empower you to joyfully do good works---not as an effort towards salvation but as a cheerful result of surrendering to God.
So there's no point at all to the good works themselves?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by Phat, posted 10-03-2013 4:48 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by Phat, posted 10-05-2013 8:34 AM ringo has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 160 of 591 (708100)
10-04-2013 5:52 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by Phat
10-01-2013 9:39 AM


Re: Walking Snakes and Living Stones
My point is that Jesus needs to be more than "real" simply as a great human example of what to do. Jesus being real implies that the resurrection has and had a power to change peoples lives
I see now that I was mistaken. Your statement above was indeed meant to answer my question. And the answer is that you believe that Jesus being more than a great example with Whom God was well pleased actually means ignoring Jesus example. Like many dispensers, you have embraced a religion in which the difficult, action, parts of the New Testament apply only to Jews.
Well at least you are honest about it.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by Phat, posted 10-01-2013 9:39 AM Phat has not replied

  
frako
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 161 of 591 (708103)
10-04-2013 7:04 PM


Im just butting in but would Jesus be happy with anyone if he came back. Sure there are loads that go to mass on sunday and pray real hard there but jesus said: “Whenever you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, because they love to pray while standing in synagogues and on street corners so that people can see them. Truly I say to you, they have their reward. But whenever you pray, go into your room, close the door, and pray to your Father in secret. And your Father, who sees in secret, will reward you” (Matthew 6:5-6).
So he would call those people hypocrites.
Sure there are loads who say they follow Jesus, but this is what Jesus said on numerous occasions:
"If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."
just following does not cut it
With these an numerous examples of things the so called most devout Christians dont follow. Do you really think his priority would be if you believed the earth was created in 7 days when all reason says it wasn't. Do you really think he would care if anyone believed he was the son of god or just some good philosopher. I think he would probably be more concerned on how good you where to your fellow men and how much you forgave.

Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand
What are the Christians gonna do to me ..... Forgive me, good luck with that.

Replies to this message:
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 162 of 591 (708112)
10-04-2013 9:55 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by frako
10-04-2013 7:04 PM


Sure there are loads who say they follow Jesus, but this is what Jesus said on numerous occasions:
"If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."
I understand your point, but is what you say really accurate? Did Jesus actually say this on numerous occasions? This story is told in Luke and Matthew, but isn't that the same incident?
Jesus also asked his disciples to leave their families, but I don't take that to mean that Jesus values deadbeat dads.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by frako, posted 10-04-2013 7:04 PM frako has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 163 of 591 (708125)
10-05-2013 8:34 AM
Reply to: Message 159 by ringo
10-04-2013 11:40 AM


Do good works cheerfully
Do good works cheerfully yet not of necessity. You should in theory want to do them.
Ringo writes:
So, if the sheep/goats scripture doesn't apply to you what do you have to do to be righteous? How does Jewish righteousness differ from Gentile righteousness?
God never changes.
Stam writes:
The principle of law or justice, for example, has continued unchanged through
the ages. No matter what the dispensation, when wrong is done God's sense of
justice is offended. This may be simply demonstrated by three Scriptural
examples:
Cain lived before the dispensation of the law by Moses. Cain murdered his
brother Abel. Was this right or wrong? Did he get into trouble over it? He did,
although the written law had not yet been given.
David lived under the law of Moses. He also committed murder. Was this
right or wrong? Wrong, of course, and he also got into trouble over it.
You and I live after the law, under the dispensation of grace. Suppose we
should commit murder, would that be right or wrong? Would we get into trouble
over it - with God? Would the fact that Christ bore our sins on Calvary, make
murder any more right? Would God look upon it as less sinful because it took
place under the dispensation of grace?
You say, in the case of the true believer today, the full legal penalty for the
sin would still have been borne by Christ and, though he knew it not, David too
was forgiven on this ground. But does not the very fact that David's sins and
ours were paid for, rather than overlooked, prove that the principles of law and
justice remain fixed?
Good works are always a good thing. The point is that they are not the road to salvation. We are not judged merely by what we do. I might add that a person whom counts faith as righteousness would quite naturlally do good works anyway, at least in theory. ---people often make the mistake of assuming that if they feel better about themselves, providence will smile upon them.
Edited by Phat, : edit

This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by ringo, posted 10-04-2013 11:40 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 165 by jar, posted 10-05-2013 8:54 AM Phat has replied
 Message 170 by ringo, posted 10-05-2013 11:41 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 164 of 591 (708126)
10-05-2013 8:42 AM
Reply to: Message 158 by jar
10-04-2013 8:47 AM


Re: A Matter Of Speculation and Discernment
I might accuse you of being in and/or believing in a cult of good works. Christianity is not just about what you do. Its about why you do it and its about your relationship with the living God...if people do good works out of ignorance that there is a living God, I suppose He would deal with them as they are. Too many critical thinkers have shoved the relationship out of their realm of possibility. Logic and Reason are often enemies of faith.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by jar, posted 10-04-2013 8:47 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 166 by jar, posted 10-05-2013 8:56 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 165 of 591 (708127)
10-05-2013 8:54 AM
Reply to: Message 163 by Phat
10-05-2013 8:34 AM


Re: Do good works cheerfully
If you had read the Bible you would see that God does change. In fact the god found in Genesis 1 is entirely different than the god found in Genesis 2&3.
But again, Jesus said you need to do good works. Jesus never said you need to do them cheerfully and in fact the Bible shows Jesus being coerced into doing good works he did not want to do.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by Phat, posted 10-05-2013 8:34 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 167 by Phat, posted 10-05-2013 9:23 AM jar has replied

  
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