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Author | Topic: What if Jesus and Satan were real? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
CL Stam explains it best. No need to read the book...browse it and you will see a basic pattern.
The flavors of nature. We build smiles. - I want Destroy global warming before it destroys you and I want it now.
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Phat Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
perhaps you should show me that whatever dispensation system you are advocating is Bible based. Thats why I brought the book up, since you said you had heard of several Dispensationalist teachings...I didn't mean to imply that you were to read it. I keep forgetting that you are not wanting to learn this stuff for ministry purposes...Basically the Bible is divided into two eras...Prophecy and Mystery. Its not simply Old and New Testaments....
Things That Differ writes: The covenant of the law (later called the old covenant, or testament) was notmade until 2500 years of human history had elapsed. "The law was given by Moses" (John 1:17), about 1500 B.C., as recorded in Exodus 19 and 20. We are told concerning this period of time "from Adam to Moses" that "there [was] no law" (Rom. 5:13,14), i.e., the law had not yet been given. This means that there is actually not one word of the old testament in Genesis. Indeed, Israel did not even emerge as a nation until her deliverance from Egypt described in Exodus. If, therefore, the Old Testament is for the Jews and the New Testament for us, for whom is the book of Genesis? As to the new covenant; this was not made until the death of Christ. "... He is the Mediator of the new testament [covenant] that by means of death ... they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance" (Heb. 9:15). It was in the shadow of the cross, as our Lord communed with His disciples, that He said: "This cup Is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you" (Luke 22:20). This means that the greater part of the four gospel records actually covers old testament rather than new testament history and that our Lord and His disciples all lived under the old covenant at that time. Seriously? Go read a book is your answer to a question you are supposed to respond to yourself? You asked for scriptural support. The book is full of scriptural support...i didnt expect you to read it...simply open it and anywhere you look you will see scriptural support for that particular theory of Dispensationalism. sheesh. I need to add something to this topic, however. My point is that Jesus needs to be more than "real" simply as a great human example of what to do. Jesus being real implies that the resurrection has and had a power to change peoples lives. Some would argue that anyone can be spiritual by and of their own power. I would argue that walking "in the Spirit" implies grace...not self works alone.
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Phat Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Phat writes:
...and I might point out that some folks could give all that they had materialistically and yet hold back their heart.Ringo writes: What does that even mean? The way you talk about "giving one's heart" sounds to me like saying, "Lord, Lord," which is frowned upon. also
Theodoric writes: Lately, the majority of Phats posts actually say and mean nothing. A bunch of words just strung together because they sound nice and sound like they actually mean something when in fact they mean nothing. Looks like Black and White thinking...either I need to mean something or my words are meaningless. Quite a taskmaster you are. Lets ask ourselves a few preliminary questions: 1) How are words and sentences and paragraphs given meaning? 2) Can emotions be inferred through the descriptive ability of the chosen words.
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Phat Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Ringo writes: Giving your heart does involve doing something, but the Matthew sheep/goats scripture is addressed to Jews who need to do good works (and obey the Law perfectly..or as near as can be done) in order to be righteous. People make the mistake of assuming that the Gospel of Grace preached by the Apostle Paul is some sort of cheap substitute and marketing gimmick, but the point of giving your heart is that you allow the Holy Spirit to empower you to joyfully do good works---not as an effort towards salvation but as a cheerful result of surrendering to God. You cant simply go do good works and have a callous indifference to God. It wont work. How does your notion of giving your heart differ from paying lip service if it doesn't involve doing something? Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
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Phat Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Theodoric writes: Im assuming that you believe that you yourself give meanings that you choose to words that you either say or read. Either that or you assume some sort of secular consensus...which is rubbish. Here, tell me what you think the following words mean...to you. Then tell me what you think the author intended the meaning to be.
..."A bunch of words just strung together because they sound nice and sound like they actually mean something when in fact they mean nothing." quote:
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Phat Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Who is His audience?
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Phat Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
You know me. I seek honesty and the Spirit.
You may argue that I have historically preferred fantasy over reality, but I would respond by saying that it is an unresolved matter what proportion and distribution of each is.(fantasy & reality)
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Phat Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Do good works cheerfully yet not of necessity. You should in theory want to do them.
Ringo writes: So, if the sheep/goats scripture doesn't apply to you what do you have to do to be righteous? How does Jewish righteousness differ from Gentile righteousness? God never changes.
Stam writes: The principle of law or justice, for example, has continued unchanged throughthe ages. No matter what the dispensation, when wrong is done God's sense of justice is offended. This may be simply demonstrated by three Scriptural examples: Cain lived before the dispensation of the law by Moses. Cain murdered his brother Abel. Was this right or wrong? Did he get into trouble over it? He did, although the written law had not yet been given. David lived under the law of Moses. He also committed murder. Was this right or wrong? Wrong, of course, and he also got into trouble over it. You and I live after the law, under the dispensation of grace. Suppose we should commit murder, would that be right or wrong? Would we get into trouble over it - with God? Would the fact that Christ bore our sins on Calvary, make murder any more right? Would God look upon it as less sinful because it took place under the dispensation of grace? You say, in the case of the true believer today, the full legal penalty for the sin would still have been borne by Christ and, though he knew it not, David too was forgiven on this ground. But does not the very fact that David's sins and ours were paid for, rather than overlooked, prove that the principles of law and justice remain fixed? Good works are always a good thing. The point is that they are not the road to salvation. We are not judged merely by what we do. I might add that a person whom counts faith as righteousness would quite naturlally do good works anyway, at least in theory. ---people often make the mistake of assuming that if they feel better about themselves, providence will smile upon them. Edited by Phat, : edit
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Phat Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
I might accuse you of being in and/or believing in a cult of good works. Christianity is not just about what you do. Its about why you do it and its about your relationship with the living God...if people do good works out of ignorance that there is a living God, I suppose He would deal with them as they are. Too many critical thinkers have shoved the relationship out of their realm of possibility. Logic and Reason are often enemies of faith.
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Phat Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes: No...all that I see is that human understanding of who God is and how He is changes.
If you had read the Bible you would see that God does change. Jesus said you need to do good works... Who was Jesus talking to? If He tells you that you personally need to do good works, I would listen. He has, in fact, told me to do good works from time to time. What God says to us is based on our interpretation of our prayers, conscience, and peers. As you have said before, it is wise to always question when someone claims to hear directly from God.
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Phat Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Ringo writes: It all depends whether you have more of a reverence for common sense than you do for faith. It may be possible to accept that our logic will steer us one way and our faith will steer us another.
A thinking person will discard a failed hypothesis whether Jesus is real or not. Clinging to a failed hypothesis is foolish whether Satan is real or not.
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Phat Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Ringo writes: What if you believed that humans were by nature competitive and selfish and thus believed that your thinking would inevitably lead you away from God and closer to self deification?
You can't be a thinking person and put faith ahead of thought.
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Phat Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
I dont think you have really read the Bible either. Your idea of a God of logic, reason, and reality is...in reality...your own intellect attempting to explain scripture the way YOU think that it is.
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Phat Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
What if Satan and Jesus were real..? Then the world would be a scary place because magic would be possible, and all manner of ghosts and goblins would also be possible. I believe that there is a difference between what may actually exist versus what humans make up. In other words, I am well aware that humans can imagine all sorts of possibilities and invent science fiction and other fables...I just don't believe that the religious mythos is one of them. (to some extent it likely is, but not totally)What if the Easter Bunny was real, or Santa Claus, or fairies, or elves, or Leprechauns..? What if Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny fought it out using WWII weaponry..? But I'll play... If Jesus were real it still wouldn't mean that the stories told about him are true. Did Washington cut down the cherry tree..? Did Daniel Boone kill a bear when he was only three..? Satan, aka Lucifer the fallen angel, would be Donald Trump. The tricky part is determining which is which. While I don't believe that all stories are made up by humans to entertain/convince/control other humans, I will admit that it is not easy to tell which is which. Perhaps it is better to live as if we were the deciding characters in a cosmic play, or perhaps not. Belief in such concepts as spiritual warfare between angelic/demonic hosts (a battle in which the outcome is already decided, by the way) is probably not going to cause much harm in a daily reality sense unless and until we have incidents llike a mother who claims God told her to kill her children, or a president who labels a war in Afghanistan as a battle between good and evil. the real battle between good and evil is in everyones individual conscience. We all know what actions we could take that are more evil than other,better choices. No belief in any Deities is required to make these daily choices...and we can't blame the bad guy if we fall short. I suppose we need not be required to give credit to God, either...comments?When I use a word, Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, it means just what I choose it to meannothing more nor less.
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Phat Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: The talking snake is quite obviously made up, though the motivation may be uncertain. So if there's obvious fiction on page two, why would we believe stories about Satan on page one-ninety-five or stories about Jesus on page three-sixty-three? MFFJM2 writes: Saying that the stories are made up is only based on the idea that evidence is required. My basis for belief is based on experiences that I have had which were unexplainable. It is true that I have a confirmation bias towards faith/belief, and it is true that I would prefer that it be true. The idea of a God that has my back is compelling. Insofar as the Bible is concerned, which stories do you think aren't made up or invented (regardless of the motivation), and what is your reason for so believing..?When I use a word, Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, it means just what I choose it to meannothing more nor less.
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