Does the bible condemn homosexuality?

Ummm actually I think you don't get it.I said I was incorrect. From what the bible says in English and in Greek no where does it say that homosexuality is condemned. Is that clear enough for you? Neither the greek (which i assume is what you mean by origonal texts) or the English translation condemn homosexuality. They condemn unrighteousness. Is that clear enough for you friend?

my bad and my sincere apologies. (still waiting for Rrhain though to improve his argument)
regards[This message has been edited by Alex, 12-03-2003]

Gay marriage would logicaly not be supported due to the fact that homosexuality is (according to the bible) a result of ones unrighteousnes.

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Homosexuality is an act of unrighteousnes and so should be stopped because it is a display of open rebellion against God.

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Unfortunately this statement is not supported by Romans. Homosexuality may be a sign of unrighteousness, but it is an act of inconvenience.I think you may have a point regarding homosexuals having to change their lifestyle before getting married, but I am unsure if that is true for baptism. Baptism is a symbolic act. While one OUGHT to change one's ways, the whole point is that humans are fallible and likely to fall back into old ways.I realize many denominations have different takes on this, but even the most rabid fundementalist leaders cry "forgiveness" when they get caught with their hand in the till, or their "pen" in the "inkwell" so to speak. You note they do not suddenly say they must be killed for what they have done, and these acts certainly came after baptism.Given that we have fornicating and greedy and lying fundamentalist leaders, why are homosexuals unable to enter the fold at all (I'll leave leadership out of this)?------------------
holmes

Nice to see you again truthlover.

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Churches that turn their heads to premarital sex are unlikely to say anything on the homosexuality issue. Churches that are staunchly anti-homosexual are generally also vocally outspoken against pre-marital sex.

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If you mean to say that they preach against it, and look down on them both, then I would agree. My point is about the difference in degree. That's why I used the loaded term "special treatment".The Nazi's didn't like theft, just as much as Jews, but an aryan thief was cut a bit more slack than any jew. The same goes for homosexuals as compared to every other sinner (except perhaps murderers) inside even the most fundamentalist denominations (except maybe the Amish who treat everyone with the same punishment). Homosexuals "enjoy" a less protected and much greater persecuted status.Fundamentalist Xian boys who beat gays to death, are unlikely to have then attacked each other for drunkenness and fornication.Even more pointed, Fundamentalist leaders have been caught being excessively greedy (to the point of stealing and gambling which can be proven), and fornicating. They have all asked forgiveness and been granted forgiveness (even when they ended up in the pokey), while continuing to declare that homosexuality is "unforgivable."My accusation is that for those railing against homosexuality too much emphasis (and so judgement and hatred) is being placed on one plank of an entire list, and forgetting what would seem to be the whole point of the religion... forgiveness for human error through Christ.------------------
holmes

For the most part I agree with you. Homosexuals are veary rarely able to stop being homosexual however their homosexual practices would have to stop. In Romans it says that they were given over to commiting these acts because they were unrighteous. So then if they were to become righteous by accepting Christ wouldn't they then stop those acts? Also how could a non-apostolic church marry a Homosexual couple when it is a display of unrighteousness?P.S. I'm not trying to be insulting friend. I'm just trying to head in the right direction.

I believe the blame for the misconception is the Church. It is within human nature to criticize, because once we criticize, we temporarely take the spotlight off our own flaws. Christians are too bound by this nature. The Bible clearly condemns sin and unrighteousness. That means we are all guilty and punishable of death. (For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, remember? ) It is true that "conservative" Christians tend to disregard their sins (whether it be a "small degree" sin such as pride or a "larger degree" sin such as fornication) and point out the flaws of more evident sins such as homosexuality. Human nature is to blame for this. But clearly, from a Biblical perspective, homosexuality is sin, and sin eternally seperates you from God and must be asked for forgiveness.As for being baptised AFTER you have gotten "rid" of your homosexuality, this, IMHO, is flawed Christian doctrine. By reading the book of Romans, one observes that you cannot EARN your way to heaven. To instantly rid of your homosexuality is a work in itself, and suggests that we earn salvation. Paul clearly states the contrary in Romans. (Romans 11:6, and the entire book of Romans)Now do not get me wrong. In the book of James, we are clearly given the depiction of what it truly means to believe. We are taught that faith without works is dead (James 2:20) Therefore in terms of homosexuality, if one were to convert to Christianity, he must acknowledge that it is sin in his life and must strive to allow God to rid it from him. It's all about drawing the line between what it truly means to believe in Christ. But by no means does his "works" save him. Same applies to an alcoholic, or something as trivial as having a lying problem.Any thoughts?[This message has been edited by Apollyon, 12-04-2003][This message has been edited by Apollyon, 12-04-2003]

I am in complete agreement with you.

I, like Xzen, feel in total agreement with what you just said. That means someone is mistaken somewhere.Is this correct?:1) homosexuality is just as much a sin, or condemned, as any other human frailty, and therefore homosexuals are no more bad than any other human.2) that homosexuals deserve, and will get, salvation just like everyone else, as long as they admit their failing and strive to be better and request forgiveness.3) that continued homosexuality would be the same as continued failing such as lying and having sex outside of marriage.4) that it is only in commiting the sin of judgement... in trying to get the spotlight of God off their own failings... that certain Xians try to make it seem like homosexuals are somehow more deserving of punishment and more wicked.This is what I got out of your post, and seems to be in contradiction to Xzen's stated position so far. But I of course could be reading into it myself.------------------
holmes

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I'm not trying to be insulting friend.

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You don't have to worry about this. I get when you are insulting me, versus when you are saying something else is insulting or condemning me.Heck you can even say you condemn me because you follow X and X condemns me. I guess that means that you are insulting me, but it is not without reason.It is only insults without reason, that I really feel insulted by.As far as I can tell anyway, we are simply in disagreement on interpretation, which is what debate is about.

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In Romans it says that they were given over to commiting these acts because they were unrighteous. So then if they were to become righteous by accepting Christ wouldn't they then stop those acts?

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Not exactly. Read the wording of this. What God says he is doing is allowing those who have turned from him, to wallow in all these inconvenient acts which are sure to lead to their weakness and ruin.What he is not saying is that no one else does such things. Such level of decadence as outlined in Romans is surely a sign that a people have turned from God, but not that any individual who commits any such things have done so. After all, these sins are seen everywhere, even among the righteous (he who is without sin cast the first stone?).The main thing is to admit one's failings and strive to be better. Does it mean an end to an activity? The best will I guess, but it is not necessary. The main thing is admitting one's guilt and striving to be better. (Note: this is one huge reason why I am not a Xian myself, I cannot accept life=guilt).

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Also how could a non-apostolic church marry a Homosexual couple when it is a display of unrighteousness?

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The question of gay marriage is separate from biblical condemnation of homosexuality. Personally I do not see how the Old Testament Bible's God would accept such ritual.However the New Testament is up for grabs. It would seem equally, if not more, blasphemous to have interfaith marriages. I mean really, that would have to be the biggest slap in the face to God ever. Yet it is allowed without much yelling and screaming.If one can specifically be married in the eyes of God with a person who denies God and will teach ones children to deny God, why can't one get married to another who despite their other failings believes in God and is striving to be better through him?Both homosexuals could of course maintain fidelity and yet strive not to have sex (which appears to be the main problem). It is not as likely that an opposite faith partner, will strive to come to your God, or renounce their own as false.------------------
holmes

Rom 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.Everyone is worthy of death you are correct. Even the best Christian is as worthy of death as a homosexual that isn't a Christian. The only difference is that the Christian will by God's grace be able to stop their "unseemly" works. A fornicator by God's grace would cease their fornication. God does not say that one sin is greater than another. People and Churches that catagorize sins as being greater or less are in err. I also ,for the most part, agree with you when you said:However the New Testament is up for grabs. It would seem equally, if not more, blasphemous to have interfaith marriages. I mean really, that would have to be the biggest slap in the face to God ever. Yet it is allowed without much yelling and screaming.While I don't agree that it's anymore a slap in the face than anything else we do that God doesn't want us too.

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The only difference is that the Christian will by God's grace be able to stop their "unseemly" works. A fornicator by God's grace would cease their fornication.

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Who on earth had God's grace but the very few prophets? Some of the saints of Catholicism maybe?If you can point to a Xian congregation where every member has given up every sin, then I'll start buying your argument. It was my understanding that we are afflicted with bad tastes and behaviors God KNOWS we will continue to practice. The best that we can hope for is to keep it to a minimum (which is relative), and beg for forgiveness for our unworthiness.Obviously that means that gays can't use this to say "hey see its alright to be gay!". It is just as sinful as other practices and the idea of "gay pride" is about the exact opposite of the humble behavior they should be practicing (as Xians).But this also does not give nongay Xians the right to say laws must be passed against them in specific, or to pick on them as exceptionally wicked to God. That itself is judgement, hubris, and wickedness.

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While I don't agree that it's anymore a slap in the face than anything else we do that God doesn't want us too.

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How could an interfaith marriage in a Xian church not be a much greater slap in the face than a gay marriage?First and foremost... though shalt have no other Gods before me. He is quite specific about never offending him by having other faiths around Him or his places of worship.While those Xians looking for condemnation of homosexuality in the Bible are forced to search for scattered details, those looking for condemnation of people worshipping other gods need look no further than the ten commendments, and the repetition of the importance of not allowing people to worship gods (esp at His temples) is much greater.Remember the point of Romans is that he allowed the corruption of homosexuality (among other things) to creep into a people AS PUNISHMENT FOR NOT WORSHIPPING HIM!If doing the deed he punishes, is not more offensive than the sin he uses as punishment, I stand a very confused person.BTW do you believe interfaith marriages should be banned by Xian churches and by US law (since that would just as well fit the "tradition" argument) just the same as homosexual ones?------------------
holmes

Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:If you have accepted Christ you recieve Grace. It would be impossible for me to show any congregation that has given up every sin however I could show you quite a few in which God has given victory over sin. For example homosexuals giving up their lifestyle and fornicators giving up their lifestyle.You say:But this also does not give nongay Xians the right to say laws must be passed against them in specific, or to pick on them as exceptionally wicked to God. That itself is judgement, hubris, and wickedness.I completly agree with that. Religeon has no place in the Government. I do believe that the Church has a grounds for not acknowledgeing or takeing part in gay marriage.You said:Who on earth had God's grace but the very few prophets? Some of the saints of Catholicism maybe?King David was a prophet and he was a sinner. However when he was punnished for his sin he put away all his wives, including the one that he had killed for.You say:If doing the deed he punishes, is not more offensive than the sin he uses as punishment, I stand a very confused person.You might have a point there but their all worthy of death and are so condemned anyway unless they repent.You say:BTW do you believe interfaith marriages should be banned by Xian churches and by US law (since that would just as well fit the "tradition" argument) just the same as homosexual ones?As far as the Church banning interfaith marriages I would have to say they should at least be consistent and ban them as well as homosexual marriage. The government, being that it SHOULD NOT be influenced by religeon, should alow gay marriage.

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If you have accepted Christ you recieve Grace

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I believe this is an equivocation on the term grace. Those that accept Christ notoriously fall down again. Only the very few get over whatever their "problems" are completely.My point about congregations which have given up every sin, was to ask you to find me where the presence of God or the acceptance of Christ has actually ended sin completely. If you are telling me you know of some group where God has given VICTORY over sin, I would like to have some evidence.Your example of homosexuals and fornicators giving up their lifestyle sounds like hucksterish claims of Xianity's curative powers. So what if people gave up one or both of those sins? Are you saying they had no other sins to answer for?Giving up one part of your lifestyle and declaring how wonderful you are now is simply ANOTHER SIN (pride and perhaps deceit). People gathering around to purge other people of the sins they themselves partcularly don't like, is once again... ANOTHER SIN (judgement, hubris, pride, and perhaps deceit and lying).Frankly, I can't wait to find the Xian denomination which has overcome the sins of judgement, hubris, pride, and deceit. IMO those would be much better to focus God's grace on, than mere sexual practices.Even your example of King David supports my argument. There are very very very few humans who live up to any of the "idols" of the Bible.

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As far as the Church banning interfaith marriages I would have to say they should at least be consistent and ban them as well as homosexual marriage.

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To be consistent, don't you believe they should be more of concern to Xians than homosexual marriages?Also, don't you believe that Xians should be more concerned about athiests and nonXians than homosexual Xians? One is a bad habit like anyone else's, the other is the height of blasphemy.------------------
holmes

You said:I believe this is an equivocation on the term grace. Those that accept Christ notoriously fall down again. Only the very few get over whatever their "problems" are completely.I agree however their are a few that don't as you stated.You said:My point about congregations which have given up every sin, was to ask you to find me where the presence of God or the acceptance of Christ has actually ended sin completely. If you are telling me you know of some group where God has given VICTORY over sin, I would like to have some evidence.Sin will not be absent anywhere until the second comeing acording to the bible.You said:Your example of homosexuals and fornicators giving up their lifestyle sounds like hucksterish claims of Xianity's curative powers. So what if people gave up one or both of those sins? Are you saying they had no other sins to answer for?I'm not saying that at all.You said:Giving up one part of your lifestyle and declaring how wonderful you are now is simply ANOTHER SIN (pride and perhaps deceit). People gathering around to purge other people of the sins they themselves partcularly don't like, is once again... ANOTHER SIN (judgement, hubris, pride, and perhaps deceit and lying).I agree. Christians are supposed to be humble not declair how proud they are.(pride being the sin that got Lucifer cast from heaven)You said:Frankly, I can't wait to find the Xian denomination which has overcome the sins of judgement, hubris, pride, and deceit. IMO those would be much better to focus God's grace on, than mere sexual practices.No denomination can overcome sin. There are at least a few that concentrate on helping people get over not just sexual immorality but also judgement, hubris, pride, and deceit.You said:Even your example of King David supports my argument. There are very very very few humans who live up to any of the "idols" of the Bible.Your correct teir are veary few humans that can live up to the standard of Jesus Christ. A true Christian should make no one from the bible their idol but should follow Christs example.You said:To be consistent, don't you believe they should be more of concern to Xians than homosexual marriages?I think they should be equally concerning.You said:Also, don't you believe that Xians should be more concerned about athiests and nonXians than homosexual Xians? One is a bad habit like anyone else's, the other is the height of blasphemy.1Co 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
1Co 5:2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
1Co 5:3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
1Co 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.I think they are of equal concern.