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Author Topic:   What if Jesus and Satan were real?
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 121 of 591 (707388)
09-26-2013 4:51 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by Phat
09-26-2013 2:11 PM


Re: Classic Topic
But why expose it? (or fight it)what motive would there be? In your mind, what threat does scripture pose for modern "enlightened" thought?
Why do kids who cling to a belief in Santa Claus for a bit too long get ridiculed by their peers? Is it because belief in Santa is a threat, or is it because silly actions draw ridicule?
I have no idea where you get the idea that ridicule is in only in response to being threatened. Surely there are other reasons.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by Phat, posted 09-26-2013 2:11 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by Phat, posted 09-26-2013 10:57 PM NoNukes has replied
 Message 125 by NoNukes, posted 09-27-2013 9:19 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 122 of 591 (707396)
09-26-2013 10:55 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by Diomedes
09-26-2013 3:02 PM


Re: Exclusive Premise
Diomedes writes:
But by invoking this premise, aren't you in essence starting your argument with a logical fallacy of the False Dichotomy (or False Dilemma)?
. granted we dont "know" whether or not there are in fact more arguments than these two. The Bible mentions two types of men...spiritual and natural.. I am choosing to use that scripture as part of my premise.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by Diomedes, posted 09-26-2013 3:02 PM Diomedes has replied

Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 123 of 591 (707397)
09-26-2013 10:57 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by NoNukes
09-26-2013 4:51 PM


Inability To Understand
Why do kids who cling to a belief in Santa Claus for a bit too long get ridiculed by their peers? Is it because belief in Santa is a threat, or is it because silly actions draw ridicule?
And I would thus judge you as having a natural mind...not a spiritual one. silliness is in the eyes of the critic.
1 Cor 2:14-15 writes:
--The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:
Thus I assert that you call this silly because you do not, can not, and/or will not consider or attempt to understand it.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
Edited by Phat, : fix

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by NoNukes, posted 09-26-2013 4:51 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by NoNukes, posted 09-27-2013 8:43 AM Phat has replied
 Message 130 by PaulK, posted 09-29-2013 3:49 PM Phat has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 124 of 591 (707421)
09-27-2013 8:43 AM
Reply to: Message 123 by Phat
09-26-2013 10:57 PM


Re: Inability To Understand
And I would thus judge you as having a natural mind...not a spiritual one. silliness is in the eyes of the critic.
You are missing the point. I am not saying that belief in Jesus is silly. I believe in Jesus. The example illustrates that ridicule can be created because the object of belief is not real, which is contrary to your claim that it can not.
Now if I were using your kind of hyper-literal logic, I'd have to assume that you believe in Santa Claus.
Thus I assert that you call this silly because you do not, can not, and/or will not consider or attempt to understand it.
And I say you are unable to read and follow an argument. I did not make any such call. Instead, I contrasted the situations from when Jesus was real and not belief to show you that your assumption that being real draws more ridicule was quite likely wrong.
Edited by NoNukes, : Tone down

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Phat, posted 09-26-2013 10:57 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by Phat, posted 09-30-2013 10:36 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 125 of 591 (707426)
09-27-2013 9:19 AM
Reply to: Message 121 by NoNukes
09-26-2013 4:51 PM


Re: Classic Topic
In your mind, what threat does scripture pose for modern "enlightened" thought?
I see that I did not answer this question. I would suggest that scripture poses no threat for people who don't believe that Jesus is real. Scripture is threatening to Christians who ostensibly believe in Jesus yet don't feel any impetus to follow Jesus example.
James 2:17 NIV
"In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead."

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by NoNukes, posted 09-26-2013 4:51 PM NoNukes has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by Phat, posted 09-30-2013 10:44 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
Diomedes
Member
Posts: 995
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013


Message 126 of 591 (707427)
09-27-2013 9:19 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by Phat
09-26-2013 10:55 PM


Re: Exclusive Premise
granted we dont "know" whether or not there are in fact more arguments than these two. The Bible mentions two types of men...spiritual and natural.. I am choosing to use that scripture as part of my premise
I may be nit-picking, but you probably should state that the above is a hypothetical as part of your broader discussion. By making the statement a 'premise', you are in fact putting forth a factual claim, which I don't think you actually want to do as part of this discussion.

"Our future lies not in our dogmatic past, but in our enlightened present"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by Phat, posted 09-26-2013 10:55 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 127 of 591 (707452)
09-27-2013 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by Phat
09-26-2013 12:50 PM


Re: Exclusive Premise
Phat writes:
Finally, for the sake of argument, I am proposing that there are two basic groups of people...those with a natural mind (free from any form of indoctrination and/or salvation entirely) and those whom, as seen earlier in this topic and whom I may quote from time to time, who have a transformed mind through the Holy Spirit.
Does it occur to you that a "transformed mind" might not be a good thing?
Phat writes:
I am not judging anyone nor claiming anything apart from the premise that there are natural minds and "spiritually enlightened" minds....
Your 1 Corinthians quote talks about a natural or spiritual body, not mind.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Phat, posted 09-26-2013 12:50 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by Phat, posted 09-28-2013 1:02 PM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 128 of 591 (707555)
09-28-2013 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by ringo
09-27-2013 12:09 PM


Re: Exclusive Premise
Your 1 Corinthians quote talks about a natural or spiritual body, not mind.
One could argue otherwise, but try this in context:
Romans 12:2 writes:
Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.
The implication being that the natural pattern of thought in the world by natural men (and women) was contrary to Pauls exhortation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by ringo, posted 09-27-2013 12:09 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by ringo, posted 09-29-2013 2:41 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 129 of 591 (707615)
09-29-2013 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by Phat
09-28-2013 1:02 PM


Re: Exclusive Premise
Phat writes:
The implication being that the natural pattern of thought in the world by natural men (and women) was contrary to Pauls exhortation.
You may be going a bit far afield for your "context". In any case neither Paul nor anybody else can detect anybody's pattern of thought except through their pattern of action.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by Phat, posted 09-28-2013 1:02 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 130 of 591 (707624)
09-29-2013 3:49 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by Phat
09-26-2013 10:57 PM


Some things to think about
Just a point about your hypothetical. It does nothing to distinguish between genuine foolishness and spiritual truths. I think that we would both agree that the Flat Earther's are simply foolish, not "spiritual"
In fact I would say that it is hard to judge ideas about the history and operation of the physical universe as "spiritual truths" - indeed they would seem to be natural truths by definition.
And is a literal reading of the Bible really the best way to extract spiritual truths ? Wouldn't a preference for literalism be more likely a mark of a "natural mind".
Now if you want to look for spiritual truths perceived as foolish be the world, how about loving your enemies ? Giving all you have to the poor? Choosing to live in poverty, trusting God to provide ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Phat, posted 09-26-2013 10:57 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by Phat, posted 09-30-2013 10:58 AM PaulK has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 131 of 591 (707673)
09-30-2013 10:36 AM
Reply to: Message 124 by NoNukes
09-27-2013 8:43 AM


Re: Inability To Understand
NoNukes writes:
I am not saying that belief in Jesus is silly. I believe in Jesus.
And I apologize for my jumping the gun and labeling you with a "natural" mind. As a Faith/Belief topic, I think that it is well allowed that the Bible be used as a piece of evidence, if we can even agree on what evidence means in a faith belief context.
Now if I were using your kind of hyper-literal logic, I'd have to assume that you believe in Santa Claus.
I see what you mean. For the record, I believe in the context of Santa Claus as ordinary humans turning into jolly traditional gift givers as a legend of a holiday from days of yore.
I definitely stopped believing in Santa when I was about 6 in a literal sense, but despite the urging of some of my atheist/agnostic friends, I find no reason nor scant evidence to doubt the Bible regarding the story of God the Father (admittedly evolving in the minds of men)and I do not believe that the stories in the Bible were all simply made up. Jesus is also very real to me. He is alive in many minds and hearts. Granted I cannot prove to anyone that He is anything more than a collective figment of human imagination, but I will point out that few other legendary men have ever been criticized or publicly denounced as much as Jesus has. One would think that the "literary figure" of satan would be more so attacked by humanity...yet satan is usually a footnote and at best a minor character.
NN writes:
I contrasted the situations from when Jesus was real and not belief to show you that your assumption that being real draws more ridicule was quite likely wrong.
Understood. Sometimes we Christians let so much of our "natural man" bad side come out that we become more of a walking billboard for satan (or ignorance, according to some) than we are for Jesus.
Edited by Phat, : oops

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by NoNukes, posted 09-27-2013 8:43 AM NoNukes has replied

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 Message 137 by NoNukes, posted 09-30-2013 4:11 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 132 of 591 (707674)
09-30-2013 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 125 by NoNukes
09-27-2013 9:19 AM


Walking Snakes and Living Stones
NoNukes writes:
I would suggest that scripture poses no threat for people who don't believe that Jesus is real.
I might disagree. Of course I am assuming that humans by nature do not want to find nor follow Jesus.
To be honest, I assume a lot. I wont deny my belief---when it comes to the Bible, but I will allow myself to question it. I am at times slothful.
C.R. Stam writes:
Slothful Christians often consider themselves quite spiritual merely because their emotions are easily aroused. They boast of their contentment with "the simple things" while they should be ashamed of their indifference to the written Word of God. They claim great devotion to God, yet neglect the one great means of knowing Him better. They profess fervent faith in Him, yet scarcely
trouble to find out just what He has said. They do not, like David, meditate upon God's Word day and night nor, like the prophets, "enquire and search diligently"as to its true meaning.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by NoNukes, posted 09-27-2013 9:19 AM NoNukes has not replied

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 Message 134 by ringo, posted 09-30-2013 12:10 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 133 of 591 (707677)
09-30-2013 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 130 by PaulK
09-29-2013 3:49 PM


Re: Some things to think about
PaulK writes:
Just a point about your hypothetical. It does nothing to distinguish between genuine foolishness and spiritual truths. I think that we would both agree that the Flat Earther's are simply foolish, not "spiritual"
Yes. Agreed.
In fact I would say that it is hard to judge ideas about the history and operation of the physical universe as "spiritual truths" - indeed they would seem to be natural truths by definition.
The universe is a natural thing...There is no spirituality connected with the universe itself, exception being scientific "woo" regarding the wonder. The point of this topic,now...9 years after it was proposed by me....is that if Jesus and satan(aka antichrist, tempter and perhaps even instigator) bring out the best and worst in people.
PaulK writes:
And is a literal reading of the Bible really the best way to extract spiritual truths?
For me, the Book is alive...its not like other books...its not simply humanly inspired words and stories.
Wouldn't a preference for literalism be more likely a mark of a "natural mind"
In some cases, yes. Good point.
Now if you want to look for spiritual truths perceived as foolish be the world, how about loving your enemies ? Giving all you have to the poor? Choosing to live in poverty, trusting God to provide?
ahhh yes. faith without works is dead. You might even argue that we don't need the book, but I believe that scripture is alive and is profitable for humans...and I might point out that some folks could give all that they had materialistically and yet hold back their heart. Anyhow lets continue...
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

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ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 134 of 591 (707685)
09-30-2013 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by Phat
09-30-2013 10:44 AM


Re: Walking Snakes and Living Stones
Phat writes:
Of course I am assuming that humans by nature do not want to find nor follow Jesus.
I know that's the standard fundie line but it doesn't match reality. Most humans have both good and bad aspects in their "nature". Whether they're real or not, Jesus and Satan personify those good and evil natures.
Since the evil nature is usually individualistic and the good nature is usually social, it seems odd to me that many Christians espouse the right-wing propaganda of individualism.

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vimesey
Member
Posts: 1398
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


(1)
Message 135 of 591 (707686)
09-30-2013 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by ringo
09-30-2013 12:10 PM


Re: Walking Snakes and Living Stones
Since the evil nature is usually individualistic and the good nature is usually social, it seems odd to me that many Christians espouse the right-wing propaganda of individualism.
Absolutely. If Jesus were real, and living today, I find it utterly inconceivable that he would, for example, preach against the principle of healthcare for all, regardless of whether the sick or injured can afford to pay for it.

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

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