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Author Topic:   Muslims promote Sharia law. Why do Christians not promote their law?
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 1 of 112 (703913)
07-30-2013 8:07 PM


Muslims promote Sharia law. Why do Christians not promote their law?
Some Muslim communities run with Sharia law. Other nations with a high Muslim population promote Sharia. It would seem from this phenomenon that Muslim law can be used to run a society as it does so in a few countries.
I know of no country that uses Christian or biblical law and have not heard of any Christian effort to have their law accepted in their nation.
This indicates that either Muslims are more religious than Christians, or Christians know that their laws would never be accepted as the law of the land.
Meanwhile, the vast majority of nations have rejected both sets of religious laws for a more secular approach to law and governance.
Briefly ---
Which of these three sets of laws do you think are superior and why?
Regards
DL

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Adminnemooseus
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Message 2 of 112 (703915)
07-30-2013 8:36 PM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum

  
CoolBeans
Member (Idle past 3615 days)
Posts: 196
From: Honduras
Joined: 02-11-2013


Message 3 of 112 (703919)
07-30-2013 9:34 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Greatest I am
07-30-2013 8:07 PM


Because it would be illegal to do it for religious reasons.

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Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 4 of 112 (703920)
07-30-2013 9:51 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Greatest I am
07-30-2013 8:07 PM


Which of these three sets of laws...
Which of these three sets of laws do you think are superior and why?
Secular. The other two are based on old Bronze or Iron age tribal myths and superstitions.
We had the Age of Enlightenment (also called the Age of Reason).
Why would we ever want to go backwards?
Edited by Coyote, : speeling

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

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NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 5 of 112 (703921)
07-30-2013 10:18 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Greatest I am
07-30-2013 8:07 PM


This indicates that either Muslims are more religious than Christians, or Christians know that their laws would never be accepted as the law of the land.
Are these truly the only options of which you can conceive?
And your OP is truly flawed in other ways. Have you even noticed the efforts of some religious people in the US to enshrine their personal beliefs and practices into law. Do you know, for example, what 'Blue Laws' are?
Perhaps it turns out that despite being religious, people value the benefits of secular law. Perhaps it turns out that getting along with other people is more important than excluding them by enshrining stuff into law. Perhaps it turns out that in non-homogeneous societies it is practically impossible to get religious laws enacted regardless of your religious zeal.
Perhaps you should think these things through before posting them. I noticed that your threads seem to gather a dozen responses or so before you lose interest in responding.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

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Theodoric
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Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 6 of 112 (703926)
07-30-2013 11:08 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Greatest I am
07-30-2013 8:07 PM


Why do Christians not promote their law?
They do. But in most western nations it is illegal.
Oh and stupid.
Do you think you could codify christian "law" so even christians would agree?

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

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onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 7 of 112 (703930)
07-31-2013 12:40 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Greatest I am
07-30-2013 8:07 PM


uses Christian or biblical law
What specifically do you recognize as "Christian Law"?
Christians never seem to agree on a lot of things when it comes to the bible... at least not on this site very often.
So first lest establish what is Christian Law, then we can see if it's being used.
- Oni

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dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 8 of 112 (703932)
07-31-2013 12:59 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Greatest I am
07-30-2013 8:07 PM


What do you think that the Radical Religious Right (RRR) have been trying to do since 1980? Of course the US Constitution keeps getting in their way, but they keep trying to get around it.
And haven't you ever heard of the Christian Reconstructionists (CR) whose goal is to replace the Constitution with an Old Testament theocracy. They were the political mentors of the RRR, even though the two groups have irreconcilable theological differences (pre-millennialism vs post-millennialism). Also, their approaches are different. The CRs have a long-term, multi-generational plan in which we trade in the Constitution for their theocracy because we choose to. Thus the CRs' main approach is through education and having kids raised on their theology, which is why a lot of their attention is directed at home schooling curricula. After all, their theology is that they need to establish the 1000 years of Christian rule before the Christ's Second Coming. They can be patient and take their time.
OTOH, the RRR believes that the 1000 years of Christian rule will come after the Christ returns, so they don't have any time to waste. They want to seize political power and they want to seize it now. That is why they seek to seize control of the government and use the force of law to force Christian rule on everyone.

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dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 9 of 112 (703933)
07-31-2013 1:02 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by onifre
07-31-2013 12:40 AM


Yes, what exactly is "Christian Law" and how could all Christians every agree on what it is? Especially since the Christian approach to the Bible, especially towards Old Testament laws, is to pick and choose what they want to enforce and then ignore all the rest.

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(3)
Message 10 of 112 (703934)
07-31-2013 1:44 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Greatest I am
07-30-2013 8:07 PM


Christians are largely ignorant of what the Bible says, and instead work on the assumption that whatever it is, it must be in accordance with their prejudices. Tell the religious right that their God has no problem with abortion but favors the death penalty for working on Saturdays and they'd just stare at you blankly. Of course their God isn't like that, they should know, they made him in their image.

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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 11 of 112 (704001)
08-01-2013 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Greatest I am
07-30-2013 8:07 PM


Greatest I am writes:
Why do Christians not promote their law?
If it was illegal to make fabrics out of mixed fibers, Wal-Mart would go out of business and everything would cost more. That would be poor stewardship.

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marc9000
Member
Posts: 1509
From: Ky U.S.
Joined: 12-25-2009
Member Rating: 1.4


(1)
Message 12 of 112 (704006)
08-01-2013 6:48 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Greatest I am
07-30-2013 8:07 PM


Muslims promote Sharia law. Why do Christians not promote their law?
By the word law, I assume you mean the 10 commandments. Most Christians agree that it should be promoted by example, not by the heavy hand of government.
Some Muslim communities run with Sharia law. Other nations with a high Muslim population promote Sharia. It would seem from this phenomenon that Muslim law can be used to run a society as it does so in a few countries.
And most everyone, including many within those countries, can see that it doesn't work very well. If they didn't have oil, it wouldn't work at all.
This indicates that either Muslims are more religious than Christians, or Christians know that their laws would never be accepted as the law of the land.
Plenty of countries, including the U.S., include Christian principles, both in their foundings, and current practices.
Meanwhile, the vast majority of nations have rejected both sets of religious laws for a more secular approach to law and governance.
Christianity and Islam aren't really comparable. The Koran promotes violence against unbelievers as an ongoing law, the Bible does not. Old Testament history is just that, history, not promotion.
Meanwhile, the vast majority of nations have rejected both sets of religious laws for a more secular approach to law and governance.
Maybe "more" secular, but not completely secular. Religion is one of many worldviews, and there's no such thing as a worldview free society. Complete secularism is atheism, and that's a worldview, with laws.
Which of these three sets of laws do you think are superior and why?
Christianity - it's the only one that actually promotes personal liberty. False religions, including atheism, don't.

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Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 13 of 112 (704007)
08-01-2013 9:01 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by marc9000
08-01-2013 6:48 PM


Personal liberty
Christianity - it's the only one that actually promotes personal liberty.
That kind of personal liberty is something we've seen in the past -- everyone is free to believe what they want, so long as it agrees with what the Christian bosses believe.
Thanks, but no thanks.
It took the Reformation and Enlightenment to get rid of those overlords and to actually establish that "personal liberty" you refer to.
We're not going back, and we're not going to fall for that sharia nonsense either.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by marc9000, posted 08-01-2013 6:48 PM marc9000 has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 14 of 112 (704008)
08-01-2013 10:40 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by marc9000
08-01-2013 6:48 PM


By the word law, I assume you mean the 10 commandments.
I think it's pretty clear that the ten commandments do not characterize what most people would think of as Christian Law. The ten commands are a short list of items mostly covering ground which is equally well covered in the Koran. I am not going to do any work to demonstrate that, but you can evaluate my statement yourself. Here is a suggested link. Or two
Comparing the Ten Commandments with verses from the Qur'an
http://www.islam101.com/...gions/TenCommandments/tcQuran.htm
More importantly though, the ten commandments are just a short list of do's and don'ts. If we want to compare Christian law to Sharia law, surely it is not the simple list that is the glaring difference. The more important issues are how justice is served, fairness, what are the penalties, and what is the level of observance. None of those things are covered in any way in the ten commandments.
A more apt comparison might be between Sharia law, and the rules in Leviticus and elsewhere in the Torah.
Old Testament history is just that, history, not promotion.
Seriously. How can it be that when that "history" serves a desired outcome (e.g. Adam and Eve is the way God intended marriage to be) then it is okay to treat that as if it were promotional. Bottom line, if the Supreme in all of the universe approved, or condoned, commanded, or even performed an action, then that activity is promoted.
In any event, the idea that Christians do not promote Christian law and society is ridiculous on its face. Surely someone here remembers Faith's recent thread in which she tried to find a legal way to establish a state within the US in which people who did not share her religious views would be banned from participating in state government.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
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onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


(3)
Message 15 of 112 (704041)
08-02-2013 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by marc9000
08-01-2013 6:48 PM


The Koran promotes violence against unbelievers as an ongoing law, the Bible does not. Old Testament history is just that, history, not promotion.
I'd say Christianity and Islam promote violence equally. There is plenty in the new testament that promotes violence, to the point where Jesus reminds everyone to follow ALL of his fathers laws - To include stoning gays and adulterers to death...and there's plenty more.
Complete secularism is atheism, and that's a worldview, with laws.
How can you have complete secularism? What does that even mean?
The only thing that should concern us being secular is things we all share. So it makes sense that we should ALL want secularism when it comes to politics and decisions about laws, etc.
I mean, surely you're trying to avoid living under Sharia Law as much as I am? If you don't want a secular government, who's to say it's your religion that will be in charge? You wouldn't want to live under someone elses religious laws, so it's best we live under no one's religious laws IMO.
But it makes no sense to call that atheism. Both the atheist and the faithful should want a secular government. Right?
Not all of the religious people want a secular government though. I'm sure there are a few fundamentalist out there who want their religion to govern the land.
- Oni

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