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Author Topic:   On The Matrix
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 61 of 74 (67908)
11-20-2003 5:14 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by crashfrog
11-19-2003 3:15 PM


crashfrog responds to me:
quote:
quote:
Leo dies at the end of Titanic, and not in a good way, and it broke records for the repeat viewers.
Huh? (You didn't just say that, did you?) He dies in a great way.
The greatest love of her life? The one she is essentially obsessed with for the rest of her life? That's a good death? She can't even get closure on it.
quote:
quote:
It isn't like Trinity picked Neo at random. Neo had been making his presence known, sticking his nose into things, and he got noticed.
Yes, which I agreed with, remember? He's asking "Who is Morpheus?"
Ignoring that I still think he's the one that first asked about the matrix, how did he know about Morpheus? All you've done is shift the question back one level. The question still remains: How did he come to learn the exact language used by the people who got out?
quote:
not "What is the Matrix?" until Trinity tells him "The Matrix has you."
No, he asks first: What is the matrix?
quote:
There's no indication that he understands
Oh, yes there is. He's searching because he's got an inkling that things are not as they should be. He's not simply looking for "the greatest hacker that ever lived."
quote:
so there'sno indication he has any idea of what the Matrix is.
That's why he asks.
But where did he get the term "matrix"? He didn't get it from Trinity.
quote:
quote:
Why is he searching these databases?
An intuitive rejection of reality which prompts a search for others who might feel the same way.
But every twelve-year-old goes through that stage. Where did he get the exact terminology used by the people who got out?
quote:
quote:
Neo is being watched because he is asking the right questions, not because he is being led.
Yes, but I agreed with this already, remember?
No, you say that Trinity leads Neo, that she feeds him the term "matrix." I'm saying it's the other way around. Neo knows the term before he meets Trinity.
Even if in the literal outplaying of the film Trinity is the one that first uses the term, Neo already knows and recognizes it as seen by the way in which he asks Trinity when he meets her in the club. He doesn't know what it means, but he knows that it is significant. That's why when Trinity goads him into asking the ultimate question, the question that comes out is "What is the matrix?" He knows it's tremendously important and he knew of the term before he met Trinity. She simply gets him to pull it all together to realize that that is the really big question.
quote:
Nonetheless he doesn't say "Matrix" until it's been said to him.
No, he says it first (if I recall correctly...do you have the DVD so you can set me straight with the actual dialog on the computer?)
Of course, at any rate, who says it first is irrelevant. Neo knew the term before he got on the computer.
------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by crashfrog, posted 11-19-2003 3:15 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by crashfrog, posted 11-20-2003 9:04 AM Rrhain has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 62 of 74 (67929)
11-20-2003 9:04 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by Rrhain
11-20-2003 5:14 AM


The greatest love of her life? The one she is essentially obsessed with for the rest of her life? That's a good death? She can't even get closure on it.
I didn't say it was a great death for her. I implied it was a great death for the story. I'm surprised that a thespian would have difficulty drawing this distinction. Unless of course you deliberately misunderstood me?
Ignoring that I still think he's the one that first asked about the matrix,
(I'd suggest a remedial viewing. Stop by the video store.)
how did he know about Morpheus?
Presumably, he encounters the name when he googles for the phrase "questioning the fundamental nature of reality" or somesuch. Neo is not the first or only person to be approached by Morpheus and his rebels. It stands to reason that some of them might have mentioned it, even if everybody just thought they were crazy.
No, he asks first: What is the matrix?
Look, you're going to need to actually watch this scene if we're going to talk about it, ok?
Neo's asleep at the computer. We see the search he's running, and it's tagging things like "Morpheus eludes authorities" so we know he's looking for Morpheus. Then it goes black, and somebody (Trinity,we find out) types "Neo, wake up". Neo wakes up. He types some stuff back. Trinity types "The Matrix has you." That's the first Neo hears about the Matrix. Then he meets Trin in the club, and he asks her "What is the Matrix?"
Neo doesn't hear about the Matrix until Trin types it on his computer. Prior to that he's only searching for Morpheus.
But where did he get the term "matrix"? He didn't get it from Trinity.
Christ, watch the damn movie! That's exactly who he gets it from, on his computer.
That's why when Trinity goads him into asking the ultimate question, the question that comes out is "What is the matrix?" He knows it's tremendously important
Yes, via intuition.
and he knew of the term before he met Trinity.
No. He sees it on his screen when Trin types it there. That's how he's getting the specific language. How he gets the idea that it's significant is left to intuition. But the specific language isn't an issue because he doesn't use it until he hears/reads it from Trinity.
No, he says it first
Alright, yes, he says it first. But only after having read it from Trinity.
Of course, at any rate, who says it first is irrelevant. Neo knew the term before he got on the computer.
What leads you to believe that? We don't know what he knows before he's on the computer, because he's asleep when we first see him. All that he can know before Trin writes to him on his screen is what's reasonable for him to know. It's not reasonable for him to know the word "Matrix". It is reasonable for him to know the name "Morpheus", because it's in the papers. How that comes to be associated with Neo's sense of alienation is purely my own speculation, but it's a lot more reasonable to me than him just knowing about the word "Matrix" already.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Rrhain, posted 11-20-2003 5:14 AM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Rrhain, posted 11-20-2003 7:17 PM crashfrog has replied

  
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 63 of 74 (67955)
11-20-2003 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by defenderofthefaith
11-20-2003 3:04 AM


Couple quick points...
quote:
Rrhain:
Because the makers of the movie seemed to indicate that it was supposed to be so much more than just a kill-the-robots fest...that it was supposed to be deep and touch on intense philosophy.
Fair enough. What I should have said was "my goal in watching it is a kill-the-robots-fest."
And in that, it certainly delivers.
quote:
You say that Matrix is similar to Asimov's Foundation?
Uh... no. Look at the statement you quoted.
quote:
Why hasn't Foundation been made into a film? Not spectacular enough, perchance?
Beats me. They're making a movie out of Caves of Steel right now, (Will Smith as Elijah Bailey, which could actually work really well) so maybe they'll get around to Foundation at some point.
But damn, if you think the Foundation series isn't spectacular, you needs to do yourself some re-reading there, mister. The fight between the Mule and the Second Foundation alone has endless screen possibilities...
[This message has been edited by Dan Carroll, 11-20-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by defenderofthefaith, posted 11-20-2003 3:04 AM defenderofthefaith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by crashfrog, posted 11-20-2003 2:26 PM Dan Carroll has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 64 of 74 (68026)
11-20-2003 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by Dan Carroll
11-20-2003 10:51 AM


(Will Smith as Elijah Bailey, which could actually work really well)
Oh, shit, dude. Does that mean we'll be subjected to "Men in Black"-style themed hip-hop?
(On the other hand, a very amusing time was had by me when fantasy author Steven Brust amused a group of us by playing an original composition of his on guitar - the story of Foundation set to "She'll be comin' round the mountain".)
But damn, if you think the Foundation series isn't spectacular, you needs to do yourself some re-reading there, mister.
I think it was Asimov himself that discovered, upona re-reading, that nothing happens in Foundation - we just see people talking about it after it's already happened. I remember once that they skip a whole space battle that way or something.
Chapter k: "Let's go to battle!"
Chapter k+1: "Boy, that was some battle, huh guys?"
[This message has been edited by crashfrog, 11-20-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Dan Carroll, posted 11-20-2003 10:51 AM Dan Carroll has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Dan Carroll, posted 11-20-2003 2:48 PM crashfrog has not replied
 Message 66 by docpotato, posted 11-20-2003 3:46 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 65 of 74 (68033)
11-20-2003 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by crashfrog
11-20-2003 2:26 PM


quote:
Oh, shit, dude. Does that mean we'll be subjected to "Men in Black"-style themed hip-hop?
Unh, unh, gettin' on witha positronic brain, yeahyeahyeah...
quote:
I think it was Asimov himself that discovered, upona re-reading, that nothing happens in Foundation - we just see people talking about it after it's already happened. I remember once that they skip a whole space battle that way or something.
Heh heh. In some scenes, yeah. No doubt. But I'm also thinking of scenes like... crap, I forget his name, the guy who introduces religion to the workers, then activates a force field, light array, and anti-gravity belt to rise up in the air and make proclomations...
You don't need big explosions to make a spectacular scene.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by crashfrog, posted 11-20-2003 2:26 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
docpotato
Member (Idle past 5047 days)
Posts: 334
From: Portland, OR
Joined: 07-18-2003


Message 66 of 74 (68046)
11-20-2003 3:46 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by crashfrog
11-20-2003 2:26 PM


quote:
I think it was Asimov himself that discovered, upona re-reading, that nothing happens in Foundation - we just see people talking about it after it's already happened. I remember once that they skip a whole space battle that way or something.
Chapter k: "Let's go to battle!"
Chapter k+1: "Boy, that was some battle, huh guys?"
There's a lot of this in the Lord of the Rings books too which seems to have made the transition from book to screen fairly spectacularized.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by crashfrog, posted 11-20-2003 2:26 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 67 of 74 (68101)
11-20-2003 7:17 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by crashfrog
11-20-2003 9:04 AM


crashfrog responds to me:
quote:
I implied it was a great death for the story. I'm surprised that a thespian would have difficulty drawing this distinction. Unless of course you deliberately misunderstood me?
(*sigh*)
Have you considered the possibility that I think Titanic isn't a very good movie? That its storytelling is sloppy? That its ending is maudlin?
quote:
quote:
Ignoring that I still think he's the one that first asked about the matrix,
(I'd suggest a remedial viewing. Stop by the video store.)
And have you? I asked you this directly. Are you saying this because you did look? This thread started with the two of us both saying, "I recall." Have you looked and now know that Trinity says it first?
quote:
quote:
how did he know about Morpheus?
Presumably, he encounters the name when he googles for the phrase "questioning the fundamental nature of reality" or somesuch.
Oh, please. Ad hoc.
quote:
quote:
No, he asks first: What is the matrix?
Look, you're going to need to actually watch this scene if we're going to talk about it, ok?
Yes, I am. I directly stated as much. Or, perhaps, somebody who does happen to be sitting in front of the TV right now could tell me.
You haven't said, "I looked it up." You, too, started off by saying, "I recall," and haven't said anything that indicates that you have done any further investigation than I have. So if you haven't looked it up and I haven't looked it up, why should I believe you?
Have you looked it up? If so, please tell me.
quote:
quote:
Of course, at any rate, who says it first is irrelevant. Neo knew the term before he got on the computer.
What leads you to believe that?
Gads, I can't believe I'm saying this....
Keanu Reeves acts it out. (*shudder*) His method of expression of the question indicates that the moment on the computer was not the first time he had heard the term "the matrix."
quote:
All that he can know before Trin writes to him on his screen is what's reasonable for him to know. It's not reasonable for him to know the word "Matrix".
Why?
Be specific.
------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by crashfrog, posted 11-20-2003 9:04 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by crashfrog, posted 11-20-2003 11:08 PM Rrhain has not replied

  
TechnoCore
Inactive Member


Message 68 of 74 (68152)
11-20-2003 8:41 PM


This is my interpretation of the matrix revolutions...
You agree with this? (Spoilers)
The Architect tries to balance the equation. Neo is the sum of the remainder of the equation.
The Oracle is an entity specialized in studies of human behavior. She wants to end the war between humans and machines. She knows this cant be done in an easy way. But she knows that if she helps Neo to much, it will unbalance the equation, forcing the Architect to re-balance it. In effect this makes Smith more powerful. Since Smith is Neos opposite. That is why she calls Smith bastard, and he replies mother.
Smith hates the repetitivness of his existance. He knows the matrix recylcles again and again. And each time he finds himself in this disgusting smelly existance. He wants to end it all, and once and for all. The only way for him to do this is to spread out into the machineworld and stop the machines. Then he will reach his non-existance and Nirwana. So the Oracles choice is to unbalance the equation alot, so that it almost breakes down compleatly. She does this by giving alot of help to Neo. Her plan is to make make Smith too powerful for even the Source to cope with, forcing the sorce to make a deal. Since Neo is Smith's opposite in power, he is also the key to negating Smith. This gives Neo the abillity to make a deal with the Source. A deal the Source cant afford to decline. The Source knows it cant handle Smith, and that Smith will spread throghout all of the machine-network if a solution isnt found. But using Neo as a tool to negate Smith just might work. This way the Source has to accept the end of the war in return in order to save his own exsistance.
At the end of Reloaded Neo stops some sentinels seemingly by magic powers, but it is not so. What really happens is that he finds the back-route into the machine-reallity from the matrix. In other words through his desperate situation he connects directly to the sentinels from the matrix via this back-route, and manages to make them self-destruct. The only things he can affect are machines. Once he is blinded, he can't even see Trinity, only everything connected to the machine-network. How can he do this? He is only partly human.
The archictect says so. He has been altered in some ways. One of those changes enables him to be constantly connected.
The back-route is the train-station. There he meets with Rama-Kandra who has just come back from Merovingian, with whom he has made a deal. He gave Merovingian the oracles body in exchange for his daughters Sati's free escape from certain deletion. Thats why the Oracle changes form. Sati is said to be the first truly free program. Maybe in a sense she is to the machines what neo is to the humans.
Now Im off to sleep

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 69 of 74 (68217)
11-20-2003 11:08 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by Rrhain
11-20-2003 7:17 PM


Have you considered the possibility that I think Titanic isn't a very good movie? That its storytelling is sloppy? That its ending is maudlin?
Well, sure, but have you considered the possibility that it made a shitload of money? That's all I'm saying - 1984: The Movie wouldn't fill the theatres, especially if it was an accurate translation of the book.
This thread started with the two of us both saying, "I recall." Have you looked and now know that Trinity says it first?
No. But I think I remember better than you. Nonetheless I'll look it up tomorrow. I don't own the DVD so I'll have to get ahold of it somehow. (Bittorrent, here I come.)
Oh, please. Ad hoc.
Yes. You'll notice that I used the word "presumably." That of course indicates that I was presuming. Did you think we were doing something besides speculating?
His method of expression of the question indicates that the moment on the computer was not the first time he had heard the term "the matrix."
Well, I'll agree that that's one interpretation. Another would be that, while he hasn't heard the specific term "Matrix" until he reads it from Trinity, something about it seems immediately, intuitively accurate. It's a stretch, but it's less of a stretch than the word springing to his mind fully-formed.
Either way, yes. He's understanding something very intuitively, which is obviously intentional on the W Bros. part.
Why?
Be specific.
Why? Because I agree with you - it doesn't make sense for him to intuitively come up with the word "Matrix". It makes more sense for him to intuitvely know that "Matrix" is the right word, though.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Rrhain, posted 11-20-2003 7:17 PM Rrhain has not replied

  
defenderofthefaith
Inactive Member


Message 70 of 74 (69815)
11-29-2003 1:39 AM


I think the closest parallel that can be drawn with the Matrix is Frank Herbert's Dune.

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Rrhain, posted 11-29-2003 6:27 PM defenderofthefaith has not replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 71 of 74 (69922)
11-29-2003 6:27 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by defenderofthefaith
11-29-2003 1:39 AM


defenderofthefaith writes:
quote:
I think the closest parallel that can be drawn with the Matrix is Frank Herbert's Dune.
That's because both The Matrix and Dune are Messiah stories. But that puts The Matrix on the same level as any other Messiah story...like, say the Bible, Star Wars, King Arthur, etc.
------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by defenderofthefaith, posted 11-29-2003 1:39 AM defenderofthefaith has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 72 of 74 (69923)
11-29-2003 6:32 PM


I did, btw, see the Matrix yesterday, and found that my recollection was correct.

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by Rrhain, posted 11-29-2003 7:48 PM crashfrog has replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 73 of 74 (69935)
11-29-2003 7:48 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by crashfrog
11-29-2003 6:32 PM


crashfrog,
K. I still stand by my statement that Neo already knew. The way the scene plays out, Trinity is not telling him anything new but rather making him put it all together.
------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by crashfrog, posted 11-29-2003 6:32 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by crashfrog, posted 11-30-2003 3:48 PM Rrhain has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 74 of 74 (70089)
11-30-2003 3:48 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by Rrhain
11-29-2003 7:48 PM


I still stand by my statement that Neo already knew.
I will grant you that when Trinity says "It's the question that drives us, Neo. You know what the question is," and Neo says "What is the Matrix", he does say it like he saying something he already knows, not something he's asking for clarification on. But it doesn't make sense to me how he could just know that, especially when the alternative explanation - Reeves is acting poorly - makes it all make sense.
It could simply be that when he hears the terms, they're so intuitively correct to him that they're at once familiar. But we're probably getting nowhere with this, huh?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Rrhain, posted 11-29-2003 7:48 PM Rrhain has not replied

  
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