Possible Signature of Extraordinary Intervention

There is no way to determine if "If you go into a room with two children and a broken vase and ask what happened, you are likely to hear one child say "she did it."" is true or false without more information.The same applies to your other 'questions'.Edited by Panda, : No reason given.

I have a simpler question. If I know the truth, but deliberately write what is false, thus conveying falsehood to some and truth to no-one, is that dishonest?I have always regarded the author of Genesis as simply ignorant. But you hold out to us the prospect that he was in fact highly knowledgeable, but also deceitful and malicious. If you give him credit with one hand, you sure take it back with the other.

Hi, Paul!I'm going to do this free form.I should have been more specific with SHESHEK, it's actually a backwards rotation code called the Atbash Cipher.Here is my cosmology for this project:Day one, universe starts at a zero point in space-time with matter, space and energy; matter gets organized into recognizable stuff and cools sufficiently for light to exist. I consider Mayim to be any fluid, at this point it would be gas.
Day 2 a firmament appears somewhere in the universe, a protoplanetary disk with sufficient metalacity to form a solid-ish planet.
Day 3 autotrophic life appears somewhere in the universe.
Day 4 our particular solar system begins to take shape, although apparently our actual sun doesn't light up until a few minutes into day 5.
Day 5 the metalicity of the universe is sufficient to have enough calcium available for fauna to appear in an ocean somewhere.
Day 6, here we are. Humans start as frugiverous, upright, small-headed ape-like creatures with a Broca's region, allowing our progenitors to control the environment by means of symbolic communication.We are now a few minutes into day 7, with large heads (painful birth,) loss of estrus (her desire is for her husband) etc.In any event, space and matter were created from nothing, and the fluid matter was chaotic and THEN organized.All the dates are from "science" (wherever that is) because the project maps Genesis events to known datable events. Not a single cosmologist would be surprised if that's the way it played out, and not a single anthropologist would be surprised, either.I believe that Genesis points to real events because, in fact, it does. Our best understanding of the Universe today is a formation from nothing at a single point establishing space, time, and matter. Fauna did start in the sea. Manure does help fallow field agriculture. Monocrop agriculture does fail.I have no idea what you mean about the 120 years verse.The code predicted that clothing would be invented 75 KYA, and then sure enough, that turned out to be the case. The code predicted small head with brain folding, and sure enough, Australopithicus Sediba showed up. The code predicts communication over tools as what makes us us, that's up in the air and goes back and forth. Let's see where it lands.

Smarty pants. Each one is assumed to be prefaced by "is it true or flalse that"

Manure, sperm, and infectious diseases certainy are answerable items...

Well, sadly, no one has taken my little quiz, so we may be far apart on what the honesty of a book is/ The author of Henry the 6th did not mean to instruct people to kill all the lawyers. The author of Henry the 6th did mean to point out that people who deal with lawyers generally wind up trying to kill them. Is HENRY honest? is BILL honest? is DICK honest?Many years ago, before political correctness, my English teacher brought in actual pickles and donuts when teaching Ethan Fromm to give us a little visual aid. Was the author honest describing lunch as pickles and donuts? Looking back on it, I only wish he taught The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe and brought in a prop for the dusty, old furs.The Bible is a thrilling story, stories convey information by what happens to people based on the choices they make. Whoever put in the code - God himself, or J, or E, or L, or p's 1 through 5, or anyone else, was putting in a true authenticator.Over half the world aligns itself around the Abraham story. There are something like 10,000 different sects, cults, denominations, and movements and historically, most of them spend their time killing, excoriating, dehumanizing, excommunicating, exploiting, and abusing each other. I wonder what would happen if such a true authenticator were ever to be accepted.

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I should have been more specific with SHESHEK, it's actually a backwards rotation code called the Atbash Cipher.

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The Atbash Cipher is NOT a rotation cipher. It's a substitution cipher, but it isn't based on a constant shift (the cipher alphabet is the original alphabet written backwards).And it doesn't seem to be an example of the Atbash cipher, either - while the double Shin maps correctly to a double Bet, the initial Lamed should map into Kaf, not Resh.

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Day one, universe starts at a zero point in space-time with matter, space and energy; matter gets organized into recognizable stuff and cools sufficiently for light to exist. I consider Mayim to be any fluid, at this point it would be gas.
Day 2 a firmament appears somewhere in the universe, a protoplanetary disk with sufficient metalacity to form a solid-ish planet.
Day 3 autotrophic life appears somewhere in the universe.
Day 4 our particular solar system begins to take shape, although apparently our actual sun doesn't light up until a few minutes into day 5.
Day 5 the metalicity of the universe is sufficient to have enough calcium available for fauna to appear in an ocean somewhere.
Day 6, here we are. Humans start as frugiverous, upright, small-headed ape-like creatures with a Broca's region, allowing our progenitors to control the environment by means of symbolic communication.

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So you've come up with your cosmology, but it's based more heavily on what you know than it is on Genesis.

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All the dates are from "science" (wherever that is) because the project maps Genesis events to known datable events. Not a single cosmologist would be surprised if that's the way it played out, and not a single anthropologist would be surprised, either.

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In other words the dates come from your knowledge rather than any "code". THat pretty much eliminates the possibility of there being a "signal" revealing the dates. (Of course, your idea that we could only find things we already knew in the code was a very strong indicator that that was the case).

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I believe that Genesis points to real events because, in fact, it does. Our best understanding of the Universe today is a formation from nothing at a single point establishing space, time, and matter. Fauna did start in the sea. Manure does help fallow field agriculture. Monocrop agriculture does fail.

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Then why is your cosmology so different from that in Genesis 1 ?

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I have no idea what you mean about the 120 years verse.

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The verse means that 120 years was the time remaining before God wiped out humanity (except Noah and his immediate family) in the Flood.

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The code predicted that clothing would be invented 75 KYA, and then sure enough, that turned out to be the case.

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It didn't predict any such thing by your own admission. And clothing seems to have been invented more than 100,000 years ago.

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The code predicted small head with brain folding, and sure enough, Australopithicus Sediba showed up.

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I bet that it didn't.

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The code predicts communication over tools as what makes us us, that's up in the air and goes back and forth. Let's see where it lands.

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I very much doubt that your "code" can be said to meaningfully predict anything. And the evidence of this thread supports me.

Sheshach:it's spelled with a caph not a koph.(Jer 25:26), supposed to be equivalent to Babel (Babylon), according to a secret (cabalistic) mode of writing among the Jews of unknown antiquity, which consisted in substituting the last letter of the Hebrew alphabet for the first, the last but one for the second, and so on. Thus the letters sh, sh, ch become b, b, l, i.e., Babel. This is supposed to be confirmed by a reference to Jer 51:41, where Sheshach and Babylon are in parallel clauses. There seems to be no reason to doubt that Babylon is here intended by this name. (See Streane's Jeremiah, l.c.)----------The lice dates move around, but I'm sticking with the original.An evolutionary comparison of human head and body lice has shed light on the history of clothing.A team based in Germany has worked out that humans probably first began wearing clothes 72,000 years ago - give or take 40,000 years.Their calculation is based on the fact that as species evolve, they become distinct by inhabiting different environments and gradually changing to suit them.While head lice live solely on the human scalp, body lice prefer to inhabit those areas covered by clothing.Molecular clockDr Mark Stoneking's team, from the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology in Leipzig, worked out when the two organisms began to diverge and became distinct species.They compared DNA sequences from both types of lice, arriving at their result by counting the number of DNA mutations."DNA mutations occur at a roughly constant rate over time, so if you know what that rate is, you can use the number of mutations between head and body lice to estimate when body lice arose," explained Dr Stoneking.----------At the end of Day 6, we eat fruit, we can manipulate the environment by means of communication, and we copulate without regard to personal relationships. Coming out of Eden, now we have a big head (painful birth) and have relations with people we love (her desire is to her husband) and we move from fruit to bread. Two things determine intelligence -- brain weight to body weight ratio, and surface area to volume ratio of the brain. Edenic people had small heads with complex brains, QED. A. sediba appears to have a Broca's reason. You bet that the A. sediba discovery came before my analysis, and I say it didn't. Nyah.

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Sheshach:
it's spelled with a caph not a koph.

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That's different spellings of the name of the same letter.

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The lice dates move around, but I'm sticking with the original.

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If the date is uncertain, then you can't just stick with the one you like and claim to be right. Especially as the dates in your code depend on getting it right.

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At the end of Day 6, we eat fruit, we can manipulate the environment by means of communication, and we copulate without regard to personal relationships.

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How do you determine the "end of day 6" ?

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Two things determine intelligence -- brain weight to body weight ratio, and surface area to volume ratio of the brain. Edenic people had small heads with complex brains, QED. A. sediba appears to have a Broca's reason. You bet that the A. sediba discovery came before my analysis, and I say it didn't. Nyah.

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That doesn't matter. It still doesn't mean that your code predicted it.

caph or kaph looks like a backwards "c" and it's the 11th letter, between yod and lamed.I can certainly pick the study I like for sentimental reasons; ALL of the studies have wide margins of error, no one has found any actual fossilized clothing dating back that far, and the important point about this event is that it is so far away from the other events on the Seth line. Have we talked about milk and camels yet? You'd have a field day roasting me on those dates. All of the scientific dates have imprecision and all could be impeached but taken together they provide confidence in the algorithm.The end of Day 6 -- our ancestors well and truly on the path to becoming us -- is when "Adam" grunts or gestures to "Eve" that the bananas are too ripe and she grunts or gestures back you know, try leaning on your elbows. That's from my beloved anthropology professor and I have had o reason to doubt her these past 35 years.I beg to differ. The plain text is clearly referencing head size, estrus, and the move from foraging to agriculture; the blessing to Adam and Eve upon their expulsion from Eden was said by God, and so it is on the God line. When I was a kid, people were theorizing large-brained apes. A little later it changed to pin-headed people. Now it looks like smart pin-headed people. The science is catching up to the plain text, just like Hoyle's last stand for the steady-state universe gave way to EST from a zero-point, as in Gen 1.And now a question for you, Paul... How many data points would satisfy you? The work as a whole also includes Cain and cain's Lamech sub-lines which may or may not properly date tents, the marginalization of nomads, beginning of cities, orchestral music, and the Iron and Bronze ages.And another question: what would it mean to you personally if it was evident that somebody knew what time it was for real 3,500 years ago?

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I can certainly pick the study I like for sentimental reasons;

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OK, so to claim that your dates are correct you need only one study that you like, no matter if it is wrong. This will certainly help increase the probability of getting things "right".

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ALL of the studies have wide margins of error, no one has found any actual fossilized clothing dating back that far, and the important point about this event is that it is so far away from the other events on the Seth line.

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That hardly seems an important point. The more important point is that your algorithm is based on an assumption that is at best questionable and very likely incorrect - in fact quite possibly out by more than 50%, which is a pretty big margin of error.

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Have we talked about milk and camels yet? You'd have a field day roasting me on those dates. All of the scientific dates have imprecision and all could be impeached but taken together they provide confidence in the algorithm.

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No, you haven't bothered to explain how you got those dates yet.

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The end of Day 6 -- our ancestors well and truly on the path to becoming us -- is when "Adam" grunts or gestures to "Eve" that the bananas are too ripe and she grunts or gestures back you know, try leaning on your elbows. That's from my beloved anthropology professor and I have had o reason to doubt her these past 35 years.

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So, as I suspected, your date for the end of day six comes from your knowledge of prehistory and not from the text. Well that simplifies things since we can ignore everything you put in about day 6 now.

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I beg to differ. The plain text is clearly referencing head size, estrus, and the move from foraging to agriculture;

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It isn't directly referencing head size, merely the consequences. And that's the best of the three. There's no clear reference to estrus at all, and since Adam was supposedly created to work as a gardner I hardly think that we can see a clear move from foraging to agriculture.

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the blessing to Adam and Eve upon their expulsion from Eden was said by God, and so it is on the God line. When I was a kid, people were theorizing large-brained apes. A little later it changed to pin-headed people. Now it looks like smart pin-headed people. The science is catching up to the plain text, just like Hoyle's last stand for the steady-state universe gave way to EST from a zero-point, as in Gen 1.

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This seems to be rather at odds with reality.

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And now a question for you, Paul... How many data points would satisfy you? The work as a whole also includes Cain and cain's Lamech sub-lines which may or may not properly date tents, the marginalization of nomads, beginning of cities, orchestral music, and the Iron and Bronze ages.

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You're going to need at least three GOOD data points. So far you haven't even managed one.

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And another question: what would it mean to you personally if it was evident that somebody knew what time it was for real 3,500 years ago?

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Well there's no danger of that since Genesis isn't that old. However, I'd be very interested in it if the evidence was solid. But given how often it turns out that the dates come from you and not the text it's not looking like I'll see anything like that.

Right. So when you claim the result to be a "Possible Signature of Extraordinary Intervention" we should just ignore that because we would not want to attach any special meaning to your calculations, right? While you are off on that visit, why don't you show your calculations to the department head I'm sure they'll instantly see the analogy between what they are doing and your work.

Okay, tall brick structures are dated precisely. Wine is dated precisely. The last time there was something not quite human that could cross-breed with humans is dated precisely. Circumcision moving from Africa to Asia is dated precisely. The earliest date for an inter-continenetal wagon trip originating in Egypt is very likely dated precisely.
The Thera / Mt. Santorini event caused world-wide flora disruption for years. If you allow that Thera caused famine in the Eastern Mediteranean, then the famine is dated preceisely. If you allow that a switch from grass skirts to leather jackets implies a cooling environment, then the Mt. Tobu (now Lake Tobu) event is dated precisely. The date of Hyksos in Egypt is dated precisely.
The Genesis text has men coming to Abraham's tent being served burgers and shakes. The same family, having interbred with Africans for 456 years, had to be told to make sure all the dairy was kept separate from the meat. I'm appealing to "Oral Torah" at this point with the justification that ancient-Canaan archeology shows that pots were not used to prepare milk and meat at the same time.
Lactase persistence is at all times associated with domestication of grazing mammals. Genetic analysis of lactase persistence spreading out from the Arabian Penninsula gives a date for LP of 2,000 BC or so, and camels would have been the only game in town; however, this is much earlier than conventional thinking about dromedary domestication.BTW, the original lice study did in fact have a margin of error of over 60%.Also BTW, every date is in fact based on current understanding (or legitimate divergent views) of when the events happened. The algorithm provides no absolute dates. The chronological information in Genisis and Exodus forms up after being run through the algorithm on three lines, and the lines can be overlayed on the real dating.And I see you're a Deuterogenesis man. I leave the High Criticism to the experts. Do you see Adam actually doing any gardening work?I'm not sure what you mean by at odds with reality. I can spend some library time, but I'm quite certain I recall that the path to us used to be thought of as starting with a large-brained ape. Then again, the first encyclopedai I ever saw had eight planets, the last of which was named Herschel.As for the age of Genesis, the syncretic parts comprising it are certainly older; the plain text would have it being delivered between about 1500 and 1200 BC. It definitely would have been in recognizable shape around the time of Josiah.

There is a special MEANING to the CALCULATIONS if the algorithm becomes accepted, just like there is a special meaning to Maxwell's equations because they let us work with electromagnetism.18 has a "special relationship" to life in Hebrew numerology because the numeric value of Chai, life, is 18.These are two completely different things.

You're still not revealing the important stuff - your dates and you you associate them with the events.I'm not sure what you mean by Deuterogenesis. Adam is specifically placed as a gardener in Eden in Genesis 2:15 - no need for Higher Criticism, just a plain reading of the text.

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I'm not sure what you mean by at odds with reality. I can spend some library time, but I'm quite certain I recall that the path to us used to be thought of as starting with a large-brained ape.

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I mean that I can't think of any evidence of or pausible reasons for major revisions in the cranial capacity of early hominids that could have happened in recent years. "Large-brained" is a relative term anyway. Even the Australopithecines average larger than a chimpanzee or orang-utan - surely that counts as"large-brained" for an ape.

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As for the age of Genesis, the syncretic parts comprising it are certainly older; the plain text would have it being delivered between about 1500 and 1200 BC. It definitely would have been in recognizable shape around the time of Josiah.

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However, much of your dating seems strongly dependent on the lifespans assigned to various figures in Genesis. There is every possibility that one or more could change through revision or scribal error, regardless of the general outline of the text. And Genesis 1 which escapes this criticism is one if the latest parts, likely Exilic. So even if you are right that parts of Genesis existed 3500 years ago, it is certainly not clear that your "codes" were there.