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Author Topic:   The black hole at the center of the Universe.
Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 106 of 305 (700169)
05-30-2013 6:06 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by Peter Lamont
05-30-2013 3:00 PM


Catholic Scientist, the air enters the nozzle in its most expanded state and at its highest speed, You're thinking this would be blue shifted? I disagree.
Blue and red shift have nothing to do with expanded states. It has to do with the relative velocity between the two observers. If you mounted the right equipment to two fighter jets you could measure a blue shift as they sped towards each other and a red shift as the passed each other and sped away. It has NOTHING to do with the epxanded state of the jets, which is just insane.
In a vortex, there would be galaxies moving TOWARDS each other. This would produce a BLUE shift. We don't see any BLUE shift. Instead, we see that galaxies are RED shifted meaning that they are MOVING away from us, and the further away they are the FASTER they are moving away from us.
Do you understand this or not?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Peter Lamont, posted 05-30-2013 3:00 PM Peter Lamont has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by Peter Lamont, posted 05-30-2013 6:55 PM Taq has replied

  
Peter Lamont
Member (Idle past 3971 days)
Posts: 147
Joined: 09-11-2012


Message 107 of 305 (700175)
05-30-2013 6:40 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by Percy
05-29-2013 6:57 PM


Re: Context
Percy, have you read my 'Observational Evidence' on page 1? There I offer evidence that we are going 'in' rather than out.
You ask for evidence and there it is.
Nobody and no telescope can see beyond the Observable Universe (OU) and anybody who says he can is just pretending. A Belgian Priest, LeMaitre, on hearing the OU was expanding, assumed the entire Universe was expanding Outwardly and that there must have been a Big Bang to get this started (celestial fireworks, anyway).
There is no evidence the Universe is expanding. It was assumed by a priest and the Church loved it as it agreed with the Bible (instant Universe). The Universe didn't appear suddenly 13 billion years ago, it evolved slowly. Over trillions of years Darwin had exactly the same problem.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Percy, posted 05-29-2013 6:57 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by Percy, posted 05-31-2013 8:34 PM Peter Lamont has replied

  
Peter Lamont
Member (Idle past 3971 days)
Posts: 147
Joined: 09-11-2012


Message 108 of 305 (700178)
05-30-2013 6:55 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by Taq
05-30-2013 6:06 PM


Taq, I know all about your red and blue shift, you don't have to explain.
In a vortex, Taq, youi're going to accelerate. Acceleration leads to loss of pressure (expansion,no?). A system left to expand, in free-fall, will expand evenly in all directions, with the ones farthest away expanding fastest. That's a red shift, Taq. What are you going to do about it? How would the Galaxies be moving towards us? That's impossible, to me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by Taq, posted 05-30-2013 6:06 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by Taq, posted 05-31-2013 10:49 AM Peter Lamont has replied

  
Peter Lamont
Member (Idle past 3971 days)
Posts: 147
Joined: 09-11-2012


Message 109 of 305 (700186)
05-30-2013 9:34 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by Percy
05-29-2013 7:01 PM


It's not evidence? I don't understand. I give you 3 examples of this 'accelerating expansion' - all lnward.
I go on to explain what is happening in the three examples and I'm trying to show that any 'accelerating expansion' fits this method. How much do you know about 'accelerating expansions' I wonder.Myself, I know about 10, all; of them Inward. They are fairly common.
If the expansion is accelerating, it's Inward. Outward expansions all slow down and stop. Only Inward expansions accelerate.
You either know this or you don't. If you can't see this, I can't help you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Percy, posted 05-29-2013 7:01 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by JonF, posted 05-31-2013 7:35 AM Peter Lamont has replied

  
Peter Lamont
Member (Idle past 3971 days)
Posts: 147
Joined: 09-11-2012


Message 110 of 305 (700187)
05-30-2013 9:39 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by Dr Adequate
05-29-2013 5:58 PM


All I know for sure is that Einsterin himself denounced his Cosmological Constant and he never changed his mind on it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-29-2013 5:58 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Peter Lamont
Member (Idle past 3971 days)
Posts: 147
Joined: 09-11-2012


Message 111 of 305 (700192)
05-30-2013 10:16 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by Percy
05-29-2013 5:50 PM


Percy, you have fallen for one of the biggest tricks ever visited the human race. Nobody can see the Universe, just the Observable Universe(OU). Surely you can see that? Only by studying the OU and not blinding ourselves to Science and new discoveries can we ever understand the Universe.
To say the enire Universe is expamding, because the OU is expanding is poor science, especiall;y when in 1998 they found that the expansion was accelerating - and any accelerating expansion is Inward as I clearly show in ,my Observational Evidence,

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Percy, posted 05-29-2013 5:50 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by NoNukes, posted 05-31-2013 12:16 AM Peter Lamont has replied
 Message 123 by Percy, posted 05-31-2013 8:37 PM Peter Lamont has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 112 of 305 (700198)
05-31-2013 12:16 AM
Reply to: Message 111 by Peter Lamont
05-30-2013 10:16 PM


and any accelerating expansion is Inward as I clearly show in ,my Observational Evidence,
Actually, you did not show any such thing.
You simply provided a couple of likely to be non-analogous examples, and then generalized to the universe, something that isn't all that much like the a bird flapping its wings, a snowball, or air approaching a vacuum nozzle. Do we need special or general relativity (GR) to describe those things? No, so we should expect the physics of expansion modeled using GR to be different, probably in significant ways.
When you keep asserting that you have clearly established something using Observation evidence, when you actually mean look at this similar things you've likely misinterpreted, then you look like a dime a dozen physics crank.
To say the enire Universe is expamding, because the OU is expanding is poor science, especiall;y when in 1998 they found that the expansion was accelerating
First, you are making the same mistake you are accusing everyone else of making. Is the entire universe actually undergoing accelerated expansion, or is the observed expansion actually of a completely local effect?
Secondly, show me the math. Or is that part to be left to the scientists?
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by Peter Lamont, posted 05-30-2013 10:16 PM Peter Lamont has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by Peter Lamont, posted 05-31-2013 5:19 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 198 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


(1)
Message 113 of 305 (700206)
05-31-2013 7:35 AM
Reply to: Message 109 by Peter Lamont
05-30-2013 9:34 PM


It's not evidence? I don't understand. I give you 3 examples of this 'accelerating expansion' - all lnward.
OK, what you call "accelerating expansion" happens in our everyday world. You've made no connection between those and our Universe. You need some evidence that is observations of the characteristics of the Universe, not allegedly analogous processes. Arguing by analogy is a fallacy. Analogies are useful for explaining certain characteristics of established phenomena but they are not evidence for the existence of phenomena other than themselves.
If the expansion is accelerating, it's Inward. Outward expansions all slow down and stop. Only Inward expansions accelerate.
You either know this or you don't. If you can't see this, I can't help you.
You are asking us to rely on your intuition for scientific conclusions. Sorry, it just doesn't work that way. Especially since there are such severe problems with your hypothesis that you obviously can't address (e.g the expected blue shift of some galaxies). Plus we know (and obviously you don't) that extending "common sense" conclusions drawn from our everyday experience to the very small and the very large, both of which are far from our everyday experience, is often wrong.
It doesn't matter whether or not you can think of an accelerating expansion that does not slow down. It doesn't even matter whether or not there exists an accelerating expansion that does not slow down other than the Universe's. The Universe's expansion could well be unique in the Universe, since the Universe is nothing like what we experience on Earth.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by Peter Lamont, posted 05-30-2013 9:34 PM Peter Lamont has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by Peter Lamont, posted 06-02-2013 6:52 PM JonF has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 114 of 305 (700231)
05-31-2013 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 108 by Peter Lamont
05-30-2013 6:55 PM


In a vortex, Taq, youi're going to accelerate. Acceleration leads to loss of pressure (expansion,no?).
Pressure has NOTHING TO DO WITH RED SHIFT.
A system left to expand, in free-fall, will expand evenly in all directions,
A vortex is not expanding evenly in all directions. Galaxies will be pulled towards the same spot causing us to observe a blue shift. We do not see a blue shift. We see a red shift.
How would the Galaxies be moving towards us?
That's how a vortex works.
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by Peter Lamont, posted 05-30-2013 6:55 PM Peter Lamont has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by Peter Lamont, posted 05-31-2013 5:28 PM Taq has replied

  
Peter Lamont
Member (Idle past 3971 days)
Posts: 147
Joined: 09-11-2012


Message 115 of 305 (700261)
05-31-2013 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by NoNukes
05-29-2013 10:54 PM


Can't make much sense, No Nukes. Do try to be more coherant, please.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by NoNukes, posted 05-29-2013 10:54 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by NoNukes, posted 05-31-2013 7:43 PM Peter Lamont has replied

  
Peter Lamont
Member (Idle past 3971 days)
Posts: 147
Joined: 09-11-2012


Message 116 of 305 (700265)
05-31-2013 5:19 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by NoNukes
05-31-2013 12:16 AM


Any 'accelerating expansion' is Inward. For one thing - Outward Expansions all slow down and stop. The only kind of expansion that accelerates is Inward.
The expansion of the Observable Universe (OU) is accelerating, and that can only mean we are going in.
The Math for this is very complex. Too complex for me, but I know I'm right. GR doesn't really come into it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by NoNukes, posted 05-31-2013 12:16 AM NoNukes has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-31-2013 5:27 PM Peter Lamont has replied
 Message 119 by Taq, posted 05-31-2013 5:29 PM Peter Lamont has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 117 of 305 (700268)
05-31-2013 5:27 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by Peter Lamont
05-31-2013 5:19 PM


The only kind of expansion that accelerates is Inward.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Peter Lamont, posted 05-31-2013 5:19 PM Peter Lamont has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by Peter Lamont, posted 06-02-2013 7:08 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
Peter Lamont
Member (Idle past 3971 days)
Posts: 147
Joined: 09-11-2012


Message 118 of 305 (700269)
05-31-2013 5:28 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by Taq
05-31-2013 10:49 AM


Loss of Prerssure equals Expansion. If you're accelerating as you expand that's going to be Red shifted.
Why should Galaxies move closer? That doesn't make sense, Taq. In a vortex you will accelerate - that means expansion. Too bad you can't see this...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by Taq, posted 05-31-2013 10:49 AM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by Taq, posted 05-31-2013 5:30 PM Peter Lamont has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 119 of 305 (700270)
05-31-2013 5:29 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by Peter Lamont
05-31-2013 5:19 PM


Any 'accelerating expansion' is Inward.
We need more than your say so. Expansion is never inwards. It is always outwards. That's what expansion means. If matter is moving inwards then it is contraction, not expansion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Peter Lamont, posted 05-31-2013 5:19 PM Peter Lamont has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by Peter Lamont, posted 06-02-2013 7:19 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 120 of 305 (700271)
05-31-2013 5:30 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by Peter Lamont
05-31-2013 5:28 PM


Loss of Prerssure equals Expansion.
The universe is not expanding because of a loss of air pressure.
Why should Galaxies move closer? That doesn't make sense, Taq. In a vortex you will accelerate - that means expansion.
In a vortex, material accelerates towards each other as they near the center. This would produce a blue shift.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by Peter Lamont, posted 05-31-2013 5:28 PM Peter Lamont has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by Peter Lamont, posted 06-02-2013 7:33 PM Taq has not replied

  
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