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Author Topic:   Endtime Prophecy and the European Union
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 121 of 313 (700171)
05-30-2013 6:08 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by Faith
05-30-2013 5:54 PM


Re: cities on seven hills
It's not a matter of dismissing the history, no one doubts that many if not most of the Reformation writers believed Revelation to be prophecy.
But that is simply to acknowledge that they were wrong about that too.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by Faith, posted 05-30-2013 5:54 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by Faith, posted 05-30-2013 6:38 PM jar has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 122 of 313 (700174)
05-30-2013 6:38 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by jar
05-30-2013 6:08 PM


Re: cities on seven hills
It's not a matter of dismissing the history, no one doubts that many if not most of the Reformation writers believed Revelation to be prophecy.
All of them did.
But that is simply to acknowledge that they were wrong about that too.
As a prophecy of the Antichrist they considered it to be fulfilled in the papacy, which continues up to the present, and the sad thing is that we've lost the perspective of the Reformers and are now looking for the Antichrist often without regard to the papacy. The Inquisition and other murders by the papacy are also considered to be fulfillment of the prophecy of Revelation, the blood of the martyrs pictured in the cup held by the Whore who Rides the Beast. So you can hardly say the book of Revelation is just a failed prophecy. The sad thing, again, is that we've lost track of the ongoing historical fulfillments of its prophecy.
Nevertheless, most of us expect a FINAL fulfillment of the prophecy yet to come as well, a final Antichrist, a final bloodletting of the true believers by the papacy, and then its final defeat. Sure it started out small and local but it's all over the world now and the finale will include the whole world.
The papacy supported Hitler, one of the biggest antichrists to date; there's one fulfillment but not the final fulfillment. Could have been I suppose but we defeated him. The Rwanda genocide was fomented by Catholic priests. And they've been involved in other genocides as well. Revelation is being fulfilled over and over again in history. We're just now working up to the last fulfillment, and I agree with PaulGL that it looks like it's going to center in the European Union. Lots of reasons to think that.
But again, honestly, I do wish you could show me that Baltimore and Washington DC are well known to be cities on seven hills. I know for instance that DC was built on a plot of land that had been called "Rome." There are intriguing connections here.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by jar, posted 05-30-2013 6:08 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by jar, posted 05-30-2013 6:56 PM Faith has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 123 of 313 (700180)
05-30-2013 6:56 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by Faith
05-30-2013 6:38 PM


Re: cities on seven hills
Yeah, some of the Reformation writers thought the Pope was the antichrist which again just shows how silly the politics of the period became.
Faith writes:
Nevertheless, most of us expect a FINAL fulfillment of the prophecy yet to come as well, a final Antichrist, a final bloodletting of the true believers by the papacy, and then its final defeat. Sure it started out small and local but it's all over the world now and the finale will include the whole world.
No one doubts that you believe that. Good luck on that.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by Faith, posted 05-30-2013 6:38 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by Faith, posted 05-30-2013 11:02 PM jar has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 124 of 313 (700193)
05-30-2013 11:02 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by jar
05-30-2013 6:56 PM


Re: cities on seven hills
Yeah, some of the Reformation writers thought the Pope was the antichrist which again just shows how silly the politics of the period became.
Again, they ALL thought that.
Just for the record, there would have been no Protestant Reformation without the revelation of the Pope as the Antichrist. That was the whole point, that the Roman Catholic institution, and particularly the papacy itself, is evil to the core, utterly ANTI-Christian, a masterpiece of wolf in sheep's clothing -- such a masterpiece that even after the priests who spearheaded the Reformation began to see through it, it took them years to see through to its core, and even then some retained some Romanisms, that's how deep the deception was/is. Like many Catholics today they had some knowledge of the truth through their church but it was so entangled with error and superstition it took dedicated application of the Bible to free them from it.
What's sad is that today's "Protestantism" has lost touch with all that and many are falling back into the same old errors.
Even this thread is pursuing a false end times point of view, as if Revelation only applied to a yet-future event, which keeps our eyes off the fact that it's been fulfilled over and over again in history already, and the same Antichrist has been doing the fulfilling over and over. This thread's perspective is Futurism, a very recent end times interpretive point of view, invented by a Jesuit, of course to throw Protestants off the truth. How well they've succeeded. By now there is hardly anything left of true Protestantism thanks to the cleverness of the Jesuits.
We need a recovery of the history we've lost. And Catholics need to know all this too, Catholics who were brought up in their religion and know nothing of its true history, buy all its lies, think its practices are Christian and so on. I feel sorry for them and hope many will find their way out of it yet, just as the once-Romanist Reformers did. They had all been Catholics you know, the priests who led it but also all the multitudes who came to follow them. We need a new Protestant Reformation. I'm sure you don't agree, but thought I'd take the opportunity for a little polemic off your post anyway.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by jar, posted 05-30-2013 6:56 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by jar, posted 05-31-2013 8:31 AM Faith has replied
 Message 135 by Theodoric, posted 05-31-2013 4:07 PM Faith has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 125 of 313 (700210)
05-31-2013 8:31 AM
Reply to: Message 124 by Faith
05-30-2013 11:02 PM


more bullshit from Faith
Sorry Faith but that is utter and complete bullshit; a collection of unsupported allegations and outright misrepresentations.
Have you ever heard of Martin Luther? Have you even read the 95 Theses? He did not see the Pope as Antichrist or even as wrong or evil and in fact reenforced both the wisdom, the holiness and the righteousness of the Pope.
To help you learn, here is a translation you can read.
quote:
OCTOBER 31, 1517
Our Lord and Master Jesus Christ, when He said Poenitentiam agite, willed that the whole life of believers should be repentance.
This word cannot be understood to mean sacramental penance, i.e., confession and satisfaction, which is administered by the priests.
Yet it means not inward repentance only; nay, there is no inward repentance which does not outwardly work divers mortifications of the flesh.
The penalty, therefore, continues so long as hatred of self continues; for this is the true inward repentance, and continues until our entrance into the kingdom of heaven.
The pope does not intend to remit, and cannot remit any penalties other than those which he has imposed either by his own authority or by that of the Canons.
The pope cannot remit any guilt, except by declaring that it has been remitted by God and by assenting to God's remission; though, to be sure, he may grant remission in cases reserved to his judgment. If his right to grant remission in such cases were despised, the guilt would remain entirely unforgiven.
God remits guilt to no one whom He does not, at the same time, humble in all things and bring into subjection to His vicar, the priest.
The penitential canons are imposed only on the living, and, according to them, nothing should be imposed on the dying.
Therefore the Holy Spirit in the pope is kind to us, because in his decrees he always makes exception of the article of death and of necessity.
Ignorant and wicked are the doings of those priests who, in the case of the dying, reserve canonical penances for purgatory.
This changing of the canonical penalty to the penalty of purgatory is quite evidently one of the tares that were sown while the bishops slept.
In former times the canonical penalties were imposed not after, but before absolution, as tests of true contrition.
The dying are freed by death from all penalties; they are already dead to canonical rules, and have a right to be released from them.
The imperfect health [of soul], that is to say, the imperfect love, of the dying brings with it, of necessity, great fear; and the smaller the love, the greater is the fear.
This fear and horror is sufficient of itself alone (to say nothing of other things) to constitute the penalty of purgatory, since it is very near to the horror of despair.
Hell, purgatory, and heaven seem to differ as do despair, almost-despair, and the assurance of safety.
With souls in purgatory it seems necessary that horror should grow less and love increase.
It seems unproved, either by reason or Scripture, that they are outside the state of merit, that is to say, of increasing love.
Again, it seems unproved that they, or at least that all of them, are certain or assured of their own blessedness, though we may be quite certain of it.
Therefore by "full remission of all penalties" the pope means not actually "of all," but only of those imposed by himself.
Therefore those preachers of indulgences are in error, who say that by the pope's indulgences a man is freed from every penalty, and saved;
Whereas he remits to souls in purgatory no penalty which, according to the canons, they would have had to pay in this life.
If it is at all possible to grant to any one the remission of all penalties whatsoever, it is certain that this remission can be granted only to the most perfect, that is, to the very fewest.
It must needs be, therefore, that the greater part of the people are deceived by that indiscriminate and highsounding promise of release from penalty.
The power which the pope has, in a general way, over purgatory, is just like the power which any bishop or curate has, in a special way, within his own diocese or parish.
The pope does well when he grants remission to souls [in purgatory], not by the power of the keys (which he does not possess), but by way of intercession.
They preach man who say that so soon as the penny jingles into the money-box, the soul flies out [of purgatory].
It is certain that when the penny jingles into the money-box, gain and avarice can be increased, but the result of the intercession of the Church is in the power of God alone.
Who knows whether all the souls in purgatory wish to be bought out of it, as in the legend of Sts. Severinus and Paschal.
No one is sure that his own contrition is sincere; much less that he has attained full remission.
Rare as is the man that is truly penitent, so rare is also the man who truly buys indulgences, i.e., such men are most rare.
They will be condemned eternally, together with their teachers, who believe themselves sure of their salvation because they have letters of pardon.
Men must be on their guard against those who say that the pope's pardons are that inestimable gift of God by which man is reconciled to Him;
For these "graces of pardon" concern only the penalties of sacramental satisfaction, and these are appointed by man.
They preach no Christian doctrine who teach that contrition is not necessary in those who intend to buy souls out of purgatory or to buy confessionalia.
Every truly repentant Christian has a right to full remission of penalty and guilt, even without letters of pardon.
Every true Christian, whether living or dead, has part in all the blessings of Christ and the Church; and this is granted him by God, even without letters of pardon.
Nevertheless, the remission and participation [in the blessings of the Church] which are granted by the pope are in no way to be despised, for they are, as I have said, the declaration of divine remission.
It is most difficult, even for the very keenest theologians, at one and the same time to commend to the people the abundance of pardons and [the need of] true contrition.
True contrition seeks and loves penalties, but liberal pardons only relax penalties and cause them to be hated, or at least, furnish an occasion [for hating them].
Apostolic pardons are to be preached with caution, lest the people may falsely think them preferable to other good works of love.
Christians are to be taught that the pope does not intend the buying of pardons to be compared in any way to works of mercy.
Christians are to be taught that he who gives to the poor or lends to the needy does a better work than buying pardons;
Because love grows by works of love, and man becomes better; but by pardons man does not grow better, only more free from penalty.
Christians are to be taught that he who sees a man in need, and passes him by, and gives [his money] for pardons, purchases not the indulgences of the pope, but the indignation of God.
Christians are to be taught that unless they have more than they need, they are bound to keep back what is necessary for their own families, and by no means to squander it on pardons.
Christians are to be taught that the buying of pardons is a matter of free will, and not of commandment.
Christians are to be taught that the pope, in granting pardons, needs, and therefore desires, their devout prayer for him more than the money they bring.
Christians are to be taught that the pope's pardons are useful, if they do not put their trust in them; but altogether harmful, if through them they lose their fear of God.
Christians are to be taught that if the pope knew the exactions of the pardon-preachers, he would rather that St. Peter's church should go to ashes, than that it should be built up with the skin, flesh and bones of his sheep.
Christians are to be taught that it would be the pope's wish, as it is his duty, to give of his own money to very many of those from whom certain hawkers of pardons cajole money, even though the church of St. Peter might have to be sold.
The assurance of salvation by letters of pardon is vain, even though the commissary, nay, even though the pope himself, were to stake his soul upon it.
They are enemies of Christ and of the pope, who bid the Word of God be altogether silent in some Churches, in order that pardons may be preached in others.
Injury is done the Word of God when, in the same sermon, an equal or a longer time is spent on pardons than on this Word.
It must be the intention of the pope that if pardons, which are a very small thing, are celebrated with one bell, with single processions and ceremonies, then the Gospel, which is the very greatest thing, should be preached with a hundred bells, a hundred processions, a hundred ceremonies.
The "treasures of the Church," out of which the pope. grants indulgences, are not sufficiently named or known among the people of Christ.
That they are not temporal treasures is certainly evident, for many of the vendors do not pour out such treasures so easily, but only gather them.
Nor are they the merits of Christ and the Saints, for even without the pope, these always work grace for the inner man, and the cross, death, and hell for the outward man.
St. Lawrence said that the treasures of the Church were the Church's poor, but he spoke according to the usage of the word in his own time.
Without rashness we say that the keys of the Church, given by Christ's merit, are that treasure;
For it is clear that for the remission of penalties and of reserved cases, the power of the pope is of itself sufficient.
The true treasure of the Church is the Most Holy Gospel of the glory and the grace of God.
But this treasure is naturally most odious, for it makes the first to be last.
On the other hand, the treasure of indulgences is naturally most acceptable, for it makes the last to be first.
Therefore the treasures of the Gospel are nets with which they formerly were wont to fish for men of riches.
The treasures of the indulgences are nets with which they now fish for the riches of men.
The indulgences which the preachers cry as the "greatest graces" are known to be truly such, in so far as they promote gain.
Yet they are in truth the very smallest graces compared with the grace of God and the piety of the Cross.
Bishops and curates are bound to admit the commissaries of apostolic pardons, with all reverence.
But still more are they bound to strain all their eyes and attend with all their ears, lest these men preach their own dreams instead of the commission of the pope.
He who speaks against the truth of apostolic pardons, let him be anathema and accursed!
But he who guards against the lust and license of the pardon-preachers, let him be blessed!
The pope justly thunders against those who, by any art, contrive the injury of the traffic in pardons.
But much more does he intend to thunder against those who use the pretext of pardons to contrive the injury of holy love and truth.
To think the papal pardons so great that they could absolve a man even if he had committed an impossible sin and violated the Mother of God -- this is madness.
We say, on the contrary, that the papal pardons are not able to remove the very least of venial sins, so far as its guilt is concerned.
It is said that even St. Peter, if he were now Pope, could not bestow greater graces; this is blasphemy against St. Peter and against the pope.
We say, on the contrary, that even the present pope, and any pope at all, has greater graces at his disposal; to wit, the Gospel, powers, gifts of healing, etc., as it is written in I. Corinthians xii.
To say that the cross, emblazoned with the papal arms, which is set up [by the preachers of indulgences], is of equal worth with the Cross of Christ, is blasphemy.
The bishops, curates and theologians who allow such talk to be spread among the people, will have an account to render.
This unbridled preaching of pardons makes it no easy matter, even for learned men, to rescue the reverence due to the pope from slander, or even from the shrewd questionings of the laity.
To wit: -- "Why does not the pope empty purgatory, for the sake of holy love and of the dire need of the souls that are there, if he redeems an infinite number of souls for the sake of miserable money with which to build a Church? The former reasons would be most just; the latter is most trivial."
Again: -- "Why are mortuary and anniversary masses for the dead continued, and why does he not return or permit the withdrawal of the endowments founded on their behalf, since it is wrong to pray for the redeemed?"
Again: -- "What is this new piety of God and the pope, that for money they allow a man who is impious and their enemy to buy out of purgatory the pious soul of a friend of God, and do not rather, because of that pious and beloved soul's own need, free it for pure love's sake?"
Again: -- "Why are the penitential canons long since in actual fact and through disuse abrogated and dead, now satisfied by the granting of indulgences, as though they were still alive and in force?"
Again: -- "Why does not the pope, whose wealth is to-day greater than the riches of the richest, build just this one church of St. Peter with his own money, rather than with the money of poor believers?"
Again: -- "What is it that the pope remits, and what participation does he grant to those who, by perfect contrition, have a right to full remission and participation?"
Again: -- "What greater blessing could come to the Church than if the pope were to do a hundred times a day what he now does once, and bestow on every believer these remissions and participations?"
"Since the pope, by his pardons, seeks the salvation of souls rather than money, why does he suspend the indulgences and pardons granted heretofore, since these have equal efficacy?"
To repress these arguments and scruples of the laity by force alone, and not to resolve them by giving reasons, is to expose the Church and the pope to the ridicule of their enemies, and to make Christians unhappy.
If, therefore, pardons were preached according to the spirit and mind of the pope, all these doubts would be readily resolved; nay, they would not exist.
Away, then, with all those prophets who say to the people of Christ, "Peace, peace," and there is no peace!
Blessed be all those prophets who say to the people of Christ, "Cross, cross," and there is no cross!
Christians are to be exhorted that they be diligent in following Christ, their Head, through penalties, deaths, and hell;
And thus be confident of entering into heaven rather through many tribulations, than through the assurance of peace.
Now granted, most of the Reformation and the creation of Protestantism was not about religion or Christianity but rather who controlled the wealth, power and territories, and in politics, demonizing the other side is a useful and successful tactic. But that had absolutely nothing to do with anything other than politics and propaganda.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by Faith, posted 05-30-2013 11:02 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by Faith, posted 05-31-2013 10:56 AM jar has replied

  
caffeine
Member (Idle past 1024 days)
Posts: 1800
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008


Message 126 of 313 (700215)
05-31-2013 8:50 AM
Reply to: Message 113 by jar
05-30-2013 4:23 PM


Re: To Catholic Scientist
Actually try to find out when some of those nations actually came to exist. When did Italy actually become the Nation of Italy?
Well that's a complicated question that hinges around the definition of 'nation'. I think it's safe to say there has never been a Nation of Italy, since the capitalisation implies that this is some sort of official designation, which has never existed. Nowadays it's the Italian Republic.
At the time that Revelation was written, Italy certainly existed. It was a province of the Roman Empire, and Italy also existed in a sense as a nation - in the sense of a shared identity as Italians. Germany and Spain also both existed as geographical concepts to the author of Revelation, and Cyprus was at the time a Roman province too (with the same name).
Not that any of this is relevant, but your post seemed a bit disingenuous to me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by jar, posted 05-30-2013 4:23 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by jar, posted 05-31-2013 8:55 AM caffeine has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 127 of 313 (700216)
05-31-2013 8:55 AM
Reply to: Message 126 by caffeine
05-31-2013 8:50 AM


Re: To Catholic Scientist
Sorry but at the time Revelations was written I doubt anyone identified themselves as Italians or French or Germans or Spanish. There were Franks and Huns and Goths and Romans and many other designations but you are right about Cyprus.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by caffeine, posted 05-31-2013 8:50 AM caffeine has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by caffeine, posted 05-31-2013 9:49 AM jar has replied

  
caffeine
Member (Idle past 1024 days)
Posts: 1800
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008


Message 128 of 313 (700222)
05-31-2013 9:49 AM
Reply to: Message 127 by jar
05-31-2013 8:55 AM


Re: To Catholic Scientist
quote:
Sorry but at the time Revelations was written I doubt anyone identified themselves as Italians or French or Germans or Spanish. There were Franks and Huns and Goths and Romans and many other designations but you are right about Cyprus.
Certainly no one identified themselves as French. German and Spanish I'm not sure - these were exonyms applied by Latin writers, so 2nd-century Germans probably didn't think of themselves as German.
'Italian', though, certainly was in use at the time (or Latin and Greek equivalents, anyway). Book V of Strabo's geography begins thusly:
quote:
After the foothills of the Alps comes the beginning of what is now Italy. For the ancients used to call only Oenotria Italy, although it extended from the Strait of Sicily only as far as the Gulfs of Tarentum and Poseidonia, but the name of Italy prevailed and advanced even as far as the foothills of the Alps, and also took in, not only those parts of Ligustica which extend from the boundaries of Tyrrhenia as far as the Varus River and the sea there, but also those parts of Istria which extend as far as Pola. One might guess that it was because of their prosperity that the people who were the first to be named Italians imparted the name to the neighbouring peoples, and then received further increments in this way until the time of the Roman conquest.
Strabo was writing more than 100 years before the Boof of Revelation was written.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by jar, posted 05-31-2013 8:55 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by jar, posted 05-31-2013 9:53 AM caffeine has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 129 of 313 (700223)
05-31-2013 9:53 AM
Reply to: Message 128 by caffeine
05-31-2013 9:49 AM


Re: To Catholic Scientist
Neat. Learn new things everyday. But what did the people call themselves? Was it Romans or did they use even more distinct local identifiers?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by caffeine, posted 05-31-2013 9:49 AM caffeine has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 130 of 313 (700232)
05-31-2013 10:56 AM
Reply to: Message 125 by jar
05-31-2013 8:31 AM


Get some history, JAR
Have you even read the 95 Theses? He did not see the Pope as Antichrist or even as wrong or evil and in fact reenforced both the wisdom, the holiness and the righteousness of the Pope.
Fer cryin out loud, jar, YOU need to read Martin Luther. At the time of his posting of the 95 Theses to the Wittenberg Church door, no, he had no argument with the Roman Church as such, no idea of leaving the Church, and no idea of doing anything more than calling for debate about reforms of what he was sure the Pope himself would recognize as excesses. It was only after some time passed, as his challenge to debate was treated as some kind of heresy, that he started to see the errors of the Church as far greater than he'd originally had any idea. It took some years for him to arrive at the conclusion that the Pope is the Antichrist.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by jar, posted 05-31-2013 8:31 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by jar, posted 05-31-2013 11:06 AM Faith has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 131 of 313 (700235)
05-31-2013 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 130 by Faith
05-31-2013 10:56 AM


Re: Get some history, JAR
Yawn.
Yes, the Protestant Reformation used the Antichrist card as political propaganda. It was just another example of power politics and had nothing to do with either reason, truth or reality.
But by the 1600s the rhetoric had begun to die down and only the nut-jobs continued trying to market the Pope as Antichrist.
Sure there are still folk like you and the rest of the CCoI that continue to market that nonsense and it is an easy sell, just like the "Saved" conjob.
But so far no End Time prophecy has ever been fulfilled and that's unlikely to change in the future.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by Faith, posted 05-31-2013 10:56 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by Faith, posted 05-31-2013 11:12 AM jar has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 132 of 313 (700236)
05-31-2013 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 131 by jar
05-31-2013 11:06 AM


Re: Get some history, JAR
Gee, first you complain that I haven't read Martin Luther, and then when I demonstrate that it's you who haven't read him, you just blithely skip onto another subject. Typical JAR.
The Pope was regarded as Antichrist throughout the Reformation and into the present by those who know the Bible. The whole thing was about the Bible, none of it was political. Your view is the propaganda, not mine.
And contrary to your claim that the prophecy of Revelation hasn't been fulfilled I've already pointed out more than once that much of it has been fulfilled, many times down the centuries, as the papacy fits the description of the Harlot Church riding the beast holding the cup of the blood of the martyrs.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by jar, posted 05-31-2013 11:06 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by jar, posted 05-31-2013 11:23 AM Faith has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 133 of 313 (700238)
05-31-2013 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 132 by Faith
05-31-2013 11:12 AM


Re: Get some history, JAR
No, you have made unsupported claims. For example; "as the papacy fits the Whore riding the beast holding the cup of the blood of the martyrs" seems like more utter nonsense.
Remember, the Pope also saw the Protestant reformers as heretics.
And of course the Reformation was political and economic. It was about who would hold power, money, land, territories. It was about who could be a Prince or King, hold a job, hold office, collect taxes...
The Bible was just another tool of propaganda to be rewritten and interpreted to support the position of a given Chapter of Club Christian. In fact the King James Bible was written to try to tone down the rhetoric and propaganda, to create a Bible that could be accepted by Protestant and Roman Catholic alike, that was not too offensive to either side but most of all established the Divine Rights of Kings and Princes.
Considering martyrs, both sides have their lists and both sides were cruel, evil and despotic during their wars and when in power.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by Faith, posted 05-31-2013 11:12 AM Faith has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 134 of 313 (700253)
05-31-2013 2:34 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by PaulGL
05-30-2013 3:55 PM


Re: To Catholic Scientist
Neither of which were part of the then (time of writing of Revelation) know civilized world. So your post is totally irrelevant
But isn't the Book of Revelation meant to be a prophecy about the future? And aren't you posting on a thread which identifies the European Union with the Antichrist? You can't identify the EU as the Antichrist and then dismiss other candidates as not being the Antichrist on the grounds that John didn't know about them. The EU didn't exist at the time of John either.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by PaulGL, posted 05-30-2013 3:55 PM PaulGL has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 135 of 313 (700258)
05-31-2013 4:07 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by Faith
05-30-2013 11:02 PM


Re: cities on seven hills
Again, they ALL thought that.
Just for the record, there would have been no Protestant Reformation without the revelation of the Pope as the Antichrist.
What record would that be?
Can you show any of the leaders of the reformation that claimed the Pope was the anti-christ?
Start with one. We will go from there. This requires evidence, not assertion.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by Faith, posted 05-30-2013 11:02 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by Faith, posted 05-31-2013 5:06 PM Theodoric has replied

  
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